Black Hereford

[Caustic Burno]

So we can agree Angus is superior. Case closed thanks for participating.

That is the farthest thing we will every agree the AA can't even agree.
If all Angus came from the same place
why won't you accept the red ones.

 

[Bright Raven]

Tim,

Most of the Simmentals I see are black with some white. White usually occurring on the head, around the udder, and feet. Too much white is not desirable.

 

[Bright Raven]

So we can agree Angus is superior. Case closed thanks for participating.

Dad, I cannot agree with that either. Lol

 

[Caustic Burno]

Tim,

Most of the Simmentals I see are black with some white. White usually occurring on the head, around the udder, and feet. Too much white is not desirable.

Point made you can't even tell the difference anymore some say Angus some say Simmentals six of one half dozen of the other.

 

[RanchMan90]

Bright Raven...I think the use of mongrelized is accurate in that regardless what breed pimps, associations say, the only reason for black herefords, simm angus, black charolais, etc. is because of BS market conditions that say that black hides on cattle means superior meat quality. These breeds did not cross with Angus to improve anything other than change coat color. Heck, who even knows what is in the wood pile of Angus genetics?...and that would most definitely mean a mongrel animal. Same thing with designer dogs...oops my poodle got out and bred by the neighbors lab...let me label the dog a labradoodle and pretend it is a better breed...all for money. Now, I love your cattle, firesweeps, etc. I don't mean this as an attack...just how I see it...thanks for allowing my contribution.

Tim

Tim.

The frustration over black coat leaves me wondering. You hear the lament that it was done for only marketing reasons. My thought is - so What? That is a legitimate purpose.

This lamenting over coat color tells me the following:

The ones who are moaning the most must have been economically hurt because their color does not compete as well or they are simply envious or jealous of the success many of the black cattle like Angus and Simmental enjoy.

I hear what you are saying. I personally don't care much for a herd of black cattle...in the NC heat and humidity they seem to suffer...not all, but some. I am not jealous of the success of Angus cattle myself. My preferred breed is Herefords with a black bull over them to make baldies to sell at the barn. I'm not breeding for replacements. To be honest, I don't think that coat color has any economic impact on the beef produced...it is a marketing effort. I may be wrong and I hope others will chime in and give their opinions. And honestly, if I was a long time rancher and my breed of choice was discounted simply because of coat color (all things being equal) I would be upset. Also, if I am not mistaken, Simmental are not black cattle...correct?

Thanks!

Tim

It's all about marketing. That's why a box of cornflakes sells for as much as a bushel of corn, its just processing, packaging, and advertising. Very few operators set out to sell low priced livestock just because they like spots, striped, off colors etc. I don't mind buying an undervalued animal that I can upgrade such as herf cows to black or bra bulls, or longhorn to Charolais. Those kind will pay off in 1 calf, not 3-4 like most.

 

[cow pollinater]

Our good friend elkwc and others, covet the idea that they have been endowed with that role. That role being that they get to say when no further changes can be made to a breed. So they become arrogant and get on cattle today and whine about it.

Better to be arrogant than ignorant. ;-)

 

[Bright Raven]

Our good friend elkwc and others, covet the idea that they have been endowed with that role. That role being that they get to say when no further changes can be made to a breed. So they become arrogant and get on cattle today and whine about it.

Better to be arrogant than ignorant. ;-)

Even worse to be both.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Some of folks must not get out and go to any bull test sales. The one's I attend mostly are independently owned and operated.
From what I see Angus bulls win the carcass ultrasound 99.9% of the time. The more technology that's used in the cattle business the better Angus and Angus crossed cows look to the feed yards.
Folks can raise whatever they want, myself I'll raise what I can sell for a premium, from the sale barn to the special - elite sales black is where it's at. I know what sells the best and I don't have to make excuses for hide color. Selling what the market wants equals more money in my pocket. And that means more to me than bragging about what kind of cattle I raise, and how high they can jump.

 

[jscunn]

True Grit,
You make a good point about the bull test. The one we both attended a single Angus bull had #1 IMF and #2 Ribeye out of 100+ bulls. I have yet to see a bull test report for two different test in the past 10 years where an Angus bull didn't have the highest IMF. Sometimes the biggest ribeye too.

High Choice and especially Prime is where the money is, eventually the cattle that can produce will be rewarded. Not all Angus will do it consistently btw.

 

[Bright Raven]

Some of folks must not get out and go to any bull test sales. The one's I attend mostly are independently owned and operated.
From what I see Angus bulls win the carcass ultrasound 99.9% of the time. The more technology that's used in the cattle business the better Angus and Angus crossed cows look to the feed yards.
Folks can raise whatever they want, myself I'll raise what I can sell for a premium, from the sale barn to the special - elite sales black is where it's at. I know what sells the best and I don't have to make excuses for hide color. Selling what the market wants equals more money in my pocket. And that means more to me than bragging about what kind of cattle I raise, and how high they can jump.

I don't know which breed jumps the highest. I do know it can be impressive. My guess is the black breeds also fall short on their jumping skills. Maybe they need some Brahman blood? Would that help?

 

[WalnutCrest]

Some of folks must not get out and go to any bull test sales. The one's I attend mostly are independently owned and operated.
From what I see Angus bulls win the carcass ultrasound 99.9% of the time. The more technology that's used in the cattle business the better Angus and Angus crossed cows look to the feed yards.
Folks can raise whatever they want, myself I'll raise what I can sell for a premium, from the sale barn to the special - elite sales black is where it's at. I know what sells the best and I don't have to make excuses for hide color. Selling what the market wants equals more money in my pocket. And that means more to me than bragging about what kind of cattle I raise, and how high they can jump.

I don't know which breed jumps the highest. I do know it can be impressive. My guess is the black breeds also fall short on their jumping skills. Maybe they need some Brahman blood? Would that help?

High jumping cattle = gaur ... bison ... brahman

What a three-way cross that'd be!?!

 

[WalnutCrest]

Grit. That is such common knowledge, you should not have to get on here and say it.

It grieves me that such bright guys as Darren would hurt me with such nonsense.
:lol: :lol:

1 - EPDs and genomic testing are great tools. I spend substantial money each year on DNA tests and I use that information to make keep / cull decisions ... only after I've sufficiently done actual, live-animal, real world testing as well.

2 - Not every EPD is particularly accurate. But that doesn't stop people from overly relying on them to make final decisions.

3 - Since it was in KC, I went to the Angus Association conference two years in a row (2014 and 2015, iirc) to listen to the panels and speakers, and to check out the vendors. I was amazed at the number of people the Angus Association trotted out there who said, "The only thing I ever look at when buying a bull is the genomic tests; I don't even look at a picture; don't need to as all that other stuff is a waste of time." These speakers are among the leaders of the breed, the big time operations, telling the small timers that visually assessing the live animal is a waste of their time ... that the only thing that's important about the pedigree is that it's stamped by the Angus Association ... that the only important piece of information that matters about the animal is the genomic data. Udder quality? Feet? Fleshing ability? Temperament? Environmental adaptability? Parasite resistance? Hardiness? Fertility? Etc? None of that matters. And these are the among the leaders of the breed! No thank you. I am a reasonably smart person, and I'm saying that king has no clothes.

Ok. Good. Your previous post did not convey your position. Welcome back to Progressive Ranching!

Welcome back? Merely because a position isn't expressed doesn't mean it's not held.

Further, the DNA tests I do are looking for very specific genetic markers that multiple university studies have found are positively correlated with really awesome dining experiences ... and I use the presence or absence of those markers to inform me when making final keep / cull decisions. The animals must (!!) perform in the pasture, their phenotype, temperament, feet, etc. must also pass muster. If not, they're gone.

I do not rely on some sort of predictive algorithm to tell me which animal is better than another.

And, regarding the excerpt you found extraordinary ... yes, I did too. The man who said it owns(ed?) a large feeder operation and owned his own cattle ... I don't remember his name, other than the stats that were relayed to the group about his business made it very clear that it was very large, larger than the vast vast majority of those in attendance. He was on a panel with three (?) others, each of whom echoed quite a bit of what he said --- the DNA test results is all that matters.

If that's the truth, eventually, they'll breed cripples that would have tasted good had they lived long enough to make it to a plate.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Like the old saying goes if you want an Angus bull in your pasture drop him off three pastures away.

 

[Bright Raven]

Darren, would you agree with me that his statement is extreme? As you say, because a position is not stated does not mean it is not held. Conversely, because a position is stated at an institution does not mean the institution endorses the position.


" I was amazed at the number of people the Angus Association trotted out there who said, "The only thing I ever look at when buying a bull is the genomic tests; I don't even look at a picture; don't need to as all that other stuff is a waste of time." These speakers are among the leaders of the breed, the big time operations, telling the small timers that visually assessing the live animal is a waste of their time ... that the only thing that's important about the pedigree is that it's stamped by the Angus Association ... that the only important piece of information that matters about the animal is the genomic data..."

 

[WalnutCrest]

Darren, would you agree with me that his statement is extreme? As you say, because a position is not stated does not mean it is not held. Conversely, because a position is stated at an institution does not mean the institution endorses the position.


" I was amazed at the number of people the Angus Association trotted out there who said, "The only thing I ever look at when buying a bull is the genomic tests; I don't even look at a picture; don't need to as all that other stuff is a waste of time." These speakers are among the leaders of the breed, the big time operations, telling the small timers that visually assessing the live animal is a waste of their time ... that the only thing that's important about the pedigree is that it's stamped by the Angus Association ... that the only important piece of information that matters about the animal is the genomic data..."

I absolutely agree that it is extreme. I also absolutely state that it was amazing (to me) that nobody else on the panel really contradicted him on his stated opinion, at the national annual Angus Association conference ... DNA, genomics, EPDs, etc. are a that's really important ... I was flabbergasted.

 

[Bright Raven]

Darren, would you agree with me that his statement is extreme? As you say, because a position is not stated does not mean it is not held. Conversely, because a position is stated at an institution does not mean the institution endorses the position.


" I was amazed at the number of people the Angus Association trotted out there who said, "The only thing I ever look at when buying a bull is the genomic tests; I don't even look at a picture; don't need to as all that other stuff is a waste of time." These speakers are among the leaders of the breed, the big time operations, telling the small timers that visually assessing the live animal is a waste of their time ... that the only thing that's important about the pedigree is that it's stamped by the Angus Association ... that the only important piece of information that matters about the animal is the genomic data..."

I absolutely agree that it is extreme. I also absolutely state that it was amazing (to me) that nobody else on the panel really contradicted him on his stated opinion, at the national annual Angus Association conference ... DNA, genomics, EPDs, etc. are a that's really important ... I was flabbergasted.

I think if you called the AAA association and ask if they endorse the practice of selecting cattle solely based on genomics, site unseen, they would have a heart attack. LOL

 

[Muddy]

Some of folks must not get out and go to any bull test sales. The one's I attend mostly are independently owned and operated.
From what I see Angus bulls win the carcass ultrasound 99.9% of the time. The more technology that's used in the cattle business the better Angus and Angus crossed cows look to the feed yards.
Folks can raise whatever they want, myself I'll raise what I can sell for a premium, from the sale barn to the special - elite sales black is where it's at. I know what sells the best and I don't have to make excuses for hide color. Selling what the market wants equals more money in my pocket. And that means more to me than bragging about what kind of cattle I raise, and how high they can jump.

I don't know which breed jumps the highest. I do know it can be impressive. My guess is the black breeds also fall short on their jumping skills. Maybe they need some Brahman blood? Would that help?

High jumping cattle = gaur ... bison ... brahman

What a three-way cross that'd be!?!

Throw a Chianina in there and you'll have a four-way cross.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Darren, would you agree with me that his statement is extreme? As you say, because a position is not stated does not mean it is not held. Conversely, because a position is stated at an institution does not mean the institution endorses the position.


" I was amazed at the number of people the Angus Association trotted out there who said, "The only thing I ever look at when buying a bull is the genomic tests; I don't even look at a picture; don't need to as all that other stuff is a waste of time." These speakers are among the leaders of the breed, the big time operations, telling the small timers that visually assessing the live animal is a waste of their time ... that the only thing that's important about the pedigree is that it's stamped by the Angus Association ... that the only important piece of information that matters about the animal is the genomic data..."

I absolutely agree that it is extreme. I also absolutely state that it was amazing (to me) that nobody else on the panel really contradicted him on his stated opinion, at the national annual Angus Association conference ... DNA, genomics, EPDs, etc. are a that's really important ... I was flabbergasted.

I think if you called the AAA association and ask if they endorse the practice of selecting cattle solely based on genomics, site unseen, they would have a heart attack. LOL

Right.

...but, again the thing was a moderated panel in front of hundreds of attendees at the national, annual, breed association event. And nobody corrected or contradicted him.

 

[WalnutCrest]

I don't know which breed jumps the highest. I do know it can be impressive. My guess is the black breeds also fall short on their jumping skills. Maybe they need some Brahman blood? Would that help?

High jumping cattle = gaur ... bison ... brahman

What a three-way cross that'd be!?!

Throw a Chianina in there and you'll have a four-way cross.

If you threw anything in there, it'd be a four-way cross. That's how these things work after all.

... 3 + 1 = 4 ...

 

[Bright Raven]

I absolutely agree that it is extreme. I also absolutely state that it was amazing (to me) that nobody else on the panel really contradicted him on his stated opinion, at the national annual Angus Association conference ... DNA, genomics, EPDs, etc. are a that's really important ... I was flabbergasted.

I think if you called the AAA association and ask if they endorse the practice of selecting cattle solely based on genomics, site unseen, they would have a heart attack. LOL

Right.

...but, again the thing was a moderated panel in front of hundreds of attendees at the national, annual, breed association event. And nobody corrected or contradicted him.

It is a free country and I don't know of any law he is breaking. Who knows - it might be working for him. You would think he would at least look at a picture...