Black Simmental

[TexasJerseyMilker]

The rancher across the road (SW Oregon) like Simms. His best cows are Simms but they are yellow Simms. So is the bull. He has been taking a ding on the calves because they are not black. To buy these homozygous black Simm bulls cost 10 or $15,000.

I was looking on Select Sires bulls because I used a Jersey on my heifer AI, sex selected for a heifer. I checked out their beef division. Select Sires has 8 homozygous Simm blacks all sex selected and 2 of them selected for bull calves. I was talking to the rancher today. He could AI to one of his yellow Simm cows (they look like big overstuffed couches but they're cows) and create his own Black Simm herd bull for $70, that would throw nothing but big black calves.

 

[kenny thomas]

Thanks for the responses. Kenny, we are using the Charolais now because of their terminal possibilities. I can see not getting a growth differential up to weaning, your selling point. As you said, enough extra pounds will beat that black hide premium! Jeanne, agree with you you 100% on within/between breeds. Both breeds have moderated over the years. We are looking for some "old school " bulls with more frame, growth and muscling than what we may see commonly. All calves are terminal, going to feedlot buyers. No heifers retained, no heifers bred. All mature cows. Only EPDs relevant are reasonable BW and high YW in a 6-7 frame bull. Warren, calves go to grass after weaning/pre-conditioning starting December 1. Get to grass when available, usually around January 15. Calving season runs around 150 days, getting better each year. We sell private treaty to an order buyer. You are right about bulls in each breed being comparable, but there are probably 100 to 1 Charolais to straight Simmental available in my area. Hard to find the right Simmental to compare to Charolais, big price differential. I welcome your comments.

Almost no Charolais bulls near here but the selection of Simmental bulls is getting better each year. I bought one from SC last fall and i expect i will like him well. He is old bloodlines and has good growth.
Many bulls i see near here of all breeds are too short to suit me. I want a tall, long, thick bull. Most i see are thick but thats all.

 

[Warren Allison]

The rancher across the road (SW Oregon) like Simms. His best cows are Simms but they are yellow Simms. So is the bull. He has been taking a ding on the calves because they are not black. To buy these homozygous black Simm bulls cost 10 or $15,000.

I was looking on Select Sires bulls because I used a Jersey on my heifer AI, sex selected for a heifer. I checked out their beef division. Select Sires has 8 homozygous Simm blacks all sex selected and 2 of them selected for bull calves. I was talking to the rancher today. He could AI to one of his yellow Simm cows (they look like big overstuffed couches but they're cows) and create his own Black Simm herd bull for $70, that would throw nothing but big black calves.

Not out of a yellow cow he won't. That $70 bull would be heterozygous for black. Bred to the yellow SImms, 50% of the calves would be yellow.

 

[Warren Allison]

Thanks for the responses. Kenny, we are using the Charolais now because of their terminal possibilities. I can see not getting a growth differential up to weaning, your selling point. As you said, enough extra pounds will beat that black hide premium! Jeanne, agree with you you 100% on within/between breeds. Both breeds have moderated over the years. We are looking for some "old school " bulls with more frame, growth and muscling than what we may see commonly. All calves are terminal, going to feedlot buyers. No heifers retained, no heifers bred. All mature cows. Only EPDs relevant are reasonable BW and high YW in a 6-7 frame bull. Warren, calves go to grass after weaning/pre-conditioning starting December 1. Get to grass when available, usually around January 15. Calving season runs around 150 days, getting better each year. We sell private treaty to an order buyer. You are right about bulls in each breed being comparable, but there are probably 100 to 1 Charolais to straight Simmental available in my area. Hard to find the right Simmental to compare to Charolais, big price differential. I welcome your comments.

What do your calves weigh, on average, when you sell them? We are just the opposite here. You'd be hard pressed to find a Charolais around here...especially a bull. No one wants one. There is just one HUGE Charolais breeder around here, but their cattle are priced way out of most people's league. I am about half way between Atlanta and Chattanooga, and can be across the state line into Alabama in 30 minutes. I doubt you'd see enough extra weight, if any at all, that will overcome that 20-30 cent per pound difference in black vs non-black cattle.

 

[Warren Allison]

Almost no Charolais bulls near here but the selection of Simmental bulls is getting better each year. I bought one from SC last fall and i expect i will like him well. He is old bloodlines and has good growth.
Many bulls i see near here of all breeds are too short to suit me. I want a tall, long, thick bull. Most i see are thick but thats all.

You ever looked at a Chi-Angus? I went to get one last year for someone. Took a 12-foot stock trailer, and he about rubbed the hair off his nose and his tail...he was so long.

 

[kenny thomas]

You ever looked at a Chi-Angus? I went to get one last year for someone. Took a 12-foot stock trailer, and he about rubbed the hair off his nose and his tail...he was so long.

Were a few Chi-Angus in this area in the 80's and 90's. Crazy and mean. Too extreme also.
There is a place in east TN that has some very good ones though.

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

Arent homozygous Simm bulls like black Angus bulls? The black gene dominates any other color. All of my Jerseys calves were sired by black Angus bulls. 4 different Angus bulls. All those calves were black. The 8th calf she had was bred to a homebred bull from across the road that is heterozygous with either Charolaise of yellow Simm in the woodpile. That heifer was fawn color. What if the rancher across the road used homozygous black Simm semen on a black Angus cow. Wouldn't that make a homozygous for black bull calf?

This is one of my Jerseys heifers from an Angus bull. She's a first calf heifer now she lives across the road.



When my Jersey was bred to this heterozygous black bull she produced this calf.

 

[redcowsrule33]

Those cows if really yellow Simmentals carry dilution genes so the bull himself would probably be grey or black depending on if the cow was heterozygous or homozygous. On those cows that bull, grey or black, would sire yellow, grey, and black calves depending on the dam. Any breed of black bull would do the same on that set of cows. Could get some rat tails too which really get dinged at the market.
Jersey coat colors are different genetically.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Not out of a yellow cow he won't. That $70 bull would be heterozygous for black. Bred to the yellow SImms, 50% of the calves would be yellow.

Partly correct. The cows are yellow because they carry a diluter gene. Depending if the cow is hetero or homo diluted, all or part of the calves will be diluted grey, silver, mousy colored. If the calf did not inherit the diluter gene, then it would be hetero black.

 

[blackladies]

You ever looked at a Chi-Angus? I went to get one last year for someone. Took a 12-foot stock trailer, and he about rubbed the hair off his nose and his tail...he was so long.

Would those longer bodied animals get docked because they won't go down the line at the packers?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Would those longer bodied animals get docked because they won't go down the line at the packers?

no - not docked for length until they are like 2000# carcasses that drag the floor. Docked on weight.

 

[Warren Allison]

Partly correct. The cows are yellow because they carry a diluter gene. Depending if the cow is hetero or homo diluted, all or part of the calves will be diluted grey, silver, mousy colored. If the calf did not inherit the diluter gene, then it would be hetero black.

A hetero black bull can only have 50% of the calves black, when bred to a non-black cow. If it is Simm, Angus, etc, and hetero, the other gene is most likely a red gene. If the bull passes the red gene on to the calf of a non-black cow, that calf can not be black.

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

Thanks. So how do you get homozgous black Simm crossbred ? Breed him to an homozygous black angus cow, with no red angus in the wood pile? And what is an ultra black?

What about if you create 2 lines of heterozygous black bulls on yellow cows using 2 different sires to avoid inbreeding and go to line breeding. Can you cross them back and back to each other's bloodline like you can breed up lines of purebred cattle in a few generations?

 

[anewcomer]

Y'all get back on track and give me some advice!!!

 

[Warren Allison]

Thanks. So how do you get homozgous black Simm crossbred ? Breed him to an homozygous black angus cow, with no red angus in the wood pile? And what is an ultra black?

What about if you create 2 lines of heterozygous black bulls on yellow cows using 2 different sires to avoid inbreeding and go to line breeding. Can you cross them back and back to each other's bloodline like you can breed up lines of purebred cattle in a few generations?

For a bovine to be homozygous black, it carries 2 black genes. If a bovine only has one black gene, and one, say...red gene...then it will be heterazygous for black. UltraBlack is a reg Angus x reg Brangus. The Brangus Association registers them. They get a "U" in front of their registration number.

 

[Warren Allison]

Thanks. So how do you get homozgous black Simm crossbred ? Breed him to an homozygous black angus cow, with no red angus in the wood pile? And what is an ultra black?

What about if you create 2 lines of heterozygous black bulls on yellow cows using 2 different sires to avoid inbreeding and go to line breeding. Can you cross them back and back to each other's bloodline like you can breed up lines of purebred cattle in a few generations?

When you cross 2 heterazygous for black cattle, 75% of the calves will be black....,25% will be homo for black, and 50% will be hetera for black.

 

[anewcomer]

Warren, average about 700 coming off grazing, average 500 going on, after pre-conditioning. We drill into permanent summer pastures, so we are later than prepared seedbed guys getting on grass, so fewer grazing days, and less total gain on grass. We have a very wide range in weights, due to our extended calving season. Getting better, and may resolve that variance next year. Would like to be able to ship truckload lots coming off grass, but probably a year or two away from that. Thanks for your interest.

 

[kenny thomas]

Warren, average about 700 coming off grazing, average 500 going on, after pre-conditioning. We drill into permanent summer pastures, so we are later than prepared seedbed guys getting on grass, so fewer grazing days, and less total gain on grass. We have a very wide range in weights, due to our extended calving season. Getting better, and may resolve that variance next year. Would like to be able to ship truckload lots coming off grass, but probably a year or two away from that. Thanks for your interest.

You stated that you sold private treaty, ask your buyer what they prefer.

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

Well, for what it's worth, I just spoke to the Select Sires genetics guy in charge of the west coast. He said homozygous black is dominant and the calves would be black, but bred on yellow Simm cows likely there would be some yellow tinge showing somewhere. I asked what if homozygous black Simm bull semen was bred on black Angus cows? He said that would make homozygous black animals. That could create a homozygous herd bull. (for $70) But even with homozygous cattle bred to other homozy, sometimes an off color shows up. For instance, one of his customers has three dairies. All his cattle have been black and white Holsteins for many years all he ever used was black and white bulls. But a red Holstein calf turned up, because somewhere in the bull and cow woodpile there was a red Holstein

 

[Warren Allison]

Y'all get back on track and give me some advice!!!

I think everyone has, Newcomer. You will get as good a claves, if not better using a black Simm or SimmAngus bull, and the calves will sell for more per pound than your Char calves have been. Lots and lots of Simm and SimmAngus in the SE....a lot more than there are Charolais. Dunno how many bulls you are running now, but if you want to tighten up that 150 day calving window, I'd run 10 bulls on 300 cows. We kept anywhere from 100-120 Corr cows that we bred to mostly Brangus or Ultrablack bulls. They calved in February. We'd put in 5-6 bulls around tax day ( April 15), and pull them Memorial Day weekend. 6-7 weeks. Never had one calve later than the 1st week of March. Just go ahead and get you a Simm or two, and see how they perform against the Char calves.