“Black” Herefords

[Ky hills]

This may be stirring the pot, hopefully not too bad. I'm just giving my take on the concept, and not meaning to disrespect anybody involved with them.
Personally have never had any of them first hand but have had quite a few Herefords and BWF.
I know folks that have leased a black Hereford bull and liked him.
In a recent discussion on here about them. Someone brought up that it was marketing of black hide that brought them to being.
I agree with that assessment. Nothing new about a BWF, even if it is different in the genetic sense that they are high percentage Herefords.
The concept is interesting, but from what I see, most of the ones I see around here are mostly heterozygous black being out of real Hereford cows.
If somebody used a heterozygous black bull on red cows only a percentage of calves will be black the rest will still be red, and on hetero black cow there's still going to be some red calves.
My heterozygous black 3/4 Angus bull proves that. He was home raised or I would not be using him, I would not have purchased a bull like that.
Another thing is that a lot of the black Herefords I see are marked like the reds with white legs and white strip down the neck.
When buyers see a black calf with white feet and legs and white other than on the face they immediately think Holstein influence and the calf gets docked.
Again my 3/4 Angus bull though solid black legged and neck, the Hereford part of him goes back to bull carrying a lot of white and it comes through in at least one or two calves every year and they get the extra dock.
A few years ago, when we were going heavy towards Hereford I considered a black Hereford bull, but looking back I believe putting an Angus or black Simmental bull on a commercial Hereford herd is the better option.
I never could convince myself that the black Herefords were advantageous in any way to what I was doing.
I will say that from the pictures I've seen the quality is improving, but I don't see any thing they can do that good red Hereford couldn't.
It's like the concept of black Charolais the AICA doesn't recognize them. It defeats the whole purpose of using a Charolais bull.
The other breeds like Simmental, Limousin, Gelbviehs are different in that they gained the black hide color during their respective breed ups.
The concept of black Hereford is kind of like trying to reinvent the wheel in my opinion.
Again I know some people are in to the black Hereford thing and I hope the well,
I just can't see a place for them as anything but a commercial animal if I had them.

 

[Travlr]

I will say that from the pictures I've seen the quality is improving, but I don't see any thing they can do that good red Hereford couldn't.

The only reason they are a thing... is because of the black hide. The calves don't get docked like red calves do. That's it. That's what the red bull can't do.

 

[mwj]

Most breeders don't use pictures of the lower quality animals.

 

[Ky hills]

The only reason they are a thing... is because of the black hide. The calves don't get docked like red calves do. That's it. That's what the red bull can't do.

Unless they are homozygous black they gonna still have some red calves unless the cows are all homozygous.
Then the Hereford trademark white feathering on the neck is still there on calves out of Hereford cows and they will be docked even if they are black.

 

[Warren Allison]

This may be stirring the pot, hopefully not too bad. I'm just giving my take on the concept, and not meaning to disrespect anybody involved with them.
Personally have never had any of them first hand but have had quite a few Herefords and BWF.
I know folks that have leased a black Hereford bull and liked him.
In a recent discussion on here about them. Someone brought up that it was marketing of black hide that brought them to being.
I agree with that assessment. Nothing new about a BWF, even if it is different in the genetic sense that they are high percentage Herefords.
The concept is interesting, but from what I see, most of the ones I see around here are mostly heterozygous black being out of real Hereford cows.
If somebody used a heterozygous black bull on red cows only a percentage of calves will be black the rest will still be red, and on hetero black cow there's still going to be some red calves.
My heterozygous black 3/4 Angus bull proves that. He was home raised or I would not be using him, I would not have purchased a bull like that.
Another thing is that a lot of the black Herefords I see are marked like the reds with white legs and white strip down the neck.
When buyers see a black calf with white feet and legs and white other than on the face they immediately think Holstein influence and the calf gets docked.
Again my 3/4 Angus bull though solid black legged and neck, the Hereford part of him goes back to bull carrying a lot of white and it comes through in at least one or two calves every year and they get the extra dock.

If you read the "mission" of the founders of the Black Hereford on the BH website, they were developed first to increase the chances of a black baldy when you use them instead of reds. Even heterozygous ones. People who use grade, commercial, "Angus" bulls often have one that is heterozygous, When bred to red Hereford cows, 50% of the calves will be red baldies. Even more common, so many people have commercial "angus" cows that are heterozygous, When bred to red Hereford bull, 50% of their calves can be red baldies. Change the Herford bull or cows either one to BH, and even if it is hetero, only 25% of the calves could be red baldies. Of course, using a homozygous bull or cow, you will get 100% black baldies. Secondary reason given to use BH, are that the Angus blood cures a lot of the problems associated with Hereford. And in the foundation 5/8ths Herf 3/8ths Angus BHs, fertility is improved over red Herefords. Now days, though, BHs are, or can be, "pure" Hereford in the same sense that a cow that is 7/8ths Simm is called a purebred, or a cow that is 15/16ths Charolais is called a pure bred. It is to the detriment of the Hereford association that they choose not to recognize the BH. No problem, they just created their own registry like red Angus breeders in America had to do. To me, doing it the "breed up" way would have been the smart thing to do. The reason the powers that be in the Hereford Association didn't want to do that, is that they realize there eventually wouldn't be any red Herefords left, that weren't sired by a hetero Black Hereford, or out of a Hetero BH cow. I like it that while BH allows you to breed to registered, polled red Herefords, if the calf comes out red, it can NOT be registered BH. And the Hereford Association won't let you register it either, even if the sire and dam were both BH. If they are both hetero and throw a red calf it can not be registered BH either. Both of these stances just speeds up the process of producing more BHs.
Another reason BHs are growing so popular, is the interest in Red Angus x Black Hereford black baldies.

A few years ago, when we were going heavy towards Hereford I considered a black Hereford bull, but looking back I believe putting an Angus or black Simmental bull on a commercial Hereford herd is the better option.
I never could convince myself that the black Herefords were advantageous in any way to what I was doing.
I will say that from the pictures I've seen the quality is improving, but I don't see any thing they can do that good red Hereford couldn't.
It's like the concept of black Charolais the AICA doesn't recognize them. It defeats the whole purpose of using a Charolais bull.
The other breeds like Simmental, Limousin, Gelbviehs are different in that they gained the black hide color during their respective breed ups.
The concept of black Hereford is kind of like trying to reinvent the wheel in my opinion.
Again I know some people are in to the black Hereford thing and I hope the well,
I just can't see a place for them as anything but a commercial animal if I had them.

 

[kenny thomas]

If you read the "mission" of the founders of the Black Hereford on the BH website, they were developed first to increase the chances of a black baldy when you use them instead of reds. Even heterozygous ones. People who use grade, commercial, "Angus" bulls often have one that is heterozygous, When bred to red Hereford cows, 50% of the calves will be red baldies. Even more common, so many people have commercial "angus" cows that are heterozygous, When bred to red Hereford bull, 50% of their calves can be red baldies. Change the Herford bull or cows either one to BH, and even if it is hetero, only 25% of the calves could be red baldies. Of course, using a homozygous bull or cow, you will get 100% black baldies. Secondary reason given to use BH, are that the Angus blood cures a lot of the problems associated with Hereford. And in the foundation 5/8ths Herf 3/8ths Angus BHs, fertility is improved over red Herefords. Now days, though, BHs are, or can be, "pure" Hereford in the same sense that a cow that is 7/8ths Simm is called a purebred, or a cow that is 15/16ths Charolais is called a pure bred. It is to the detriment of the Hereford association that they choose not to recognize the BH. No problem, they just created their own registry like red Angus breeders in America had to do. To me, doing it the "breed up" way would have been the smart thing to do. The reason the powers that be in the Hereford Association didn't want to do that, is that they realize there eventually wouldn't be any red Herefords left, that weren't sired by a hetero Black Hereford, or out of a Hetero BH cow. I like it that while BH allows you to breed to registered, polled red Herefords, if the calf comes out red, it can NOT be registered BH. And the Hereford Association won't let you register it either, even if the sire and dam were both BH. If they are both hetero and throw a red calf it can not be registered BH either. Both of these stances just speeds up the process of producing more BHs.
Another reason BHs are growing so popular, is the interest in Red Angus x Black Hereford black baldies.

Im seeing almost 0 interest in them here. 1 guy has them is all im aware of. His are very small calves at selling time with a lot of feather white on them. Don't sell well.

 

[Warren Allison]

Im seeing almost 0 interest in them here. 1 guy has them is all im aware of. His are very small calves at selling time with a lot of feather white on them. Don't sell well.

I have never seen any sold at a local sale. Just special breed sales. I don't think anyone would go through the expense of buying registered BH bulls and/or cows to use as a commercial herd. The only time you might see a calf sold commercially would be if both parents were hetero, and the calf came out red. I suppose in the future, there may be some pb but not registered commercial BHs , that get sold at local auctions. What we are seeing more and more, are f1 Brahma x Black Hereford. The ones I have seen first hand, the black heifers sold at weaning for about $100 more per head than reds, and $200 more than brindled. And the steers sold for a LOT more than red or brindleds do. An f1 operation is one area that having a hetero for black bull wouldn't hurt you so much. If the cows had black calves, you make more money than you would with using a red Hereford bull on the Brahmas. Especially with the steers. If it sired some red or brindled ones, you make the same money as you would have if you had used a red Hereford bull.

 

[Ky hills]

I don't think there's any danger of "black Herefords" taking over Herefords. The breeders that left have weathered a lot of storms and aren't going to give up and go that route.
I can't imagine having a herd of red Angus and breeding them to black Herefords. Maybe some do, but if it were me I and I wanted black calves out of them, I'd go with Simmental and get more growth than from a British breed cross.
Red baldy calves from red Angus cows out of real red Herefords or red Simmentals would be sone fine cows too.
We found in selling bred heifers that good red baldies were sale toppers sometimes and almost always in the top end of the sale.

 

[chaded]

The neighbor had a BH bull and he was pretty nice. Very thick and just looked 'manly'. He did not have the white featherneck either. Black baldy face and some white on his belly. Every calf of his looked exactly the same, very nice black baldy calves.

I actually got a calf from him because he broke into our pasture and bred all the heifers of a guy I was leasing the pasture to and then I ended up with one of those heifers (Crazy story there). Heifer was 50/50 angus/holstein and that calf weighed over 600 when I weaned him (7 months or so?) and I got a decent amount out of him. If I recall correctly he topped his weight category that day. If I can find a picture I will post him.

I don't really have any other experience with them other than that so I don't have any skin in the game so to speak either way but I have always said if he brings that bull back he won't need to break through the fence, i will open the gate.

 

[Rmc]

My biggest problem with the breed is that many of the foundation animals for the breed are/were carriers of msud.
I personally think that there are far better animals to select for foundation of a "breed"

 

[Brute 23]

There is no such thing as a Black Hereford.

 

[Warren Allison]

I don't think there's any danger of "black Herefords" taking over Herefords. The breeders that left have weathered a lot of storms and aren't going to give up and go that route.
I can't imagine having a herd of red Angus and breeding them to black Herefords. Maybe some do, but if it were me I and I wanted black calves out of them, I'd go with Simmental and get more growth than from a British breed cross.
Red baldy calves from red Angus cows out of real red Herefords or red Simmentals would be sone fine cows too.
We found in selling bred heifers that good red baldies were sale toppers sometimes and almost always in the top end of the sale.

Well, commercial red angus calves won't bring as much as black baldies that sell for just as much as solid blacks. So, a homozygous for black Hereford bull is the only way to get a black baldy from a red Angus. The boy I am buying the red Angus and red Brangus for, is doing the same thing. Black Angus and Brangus cows cost a whole lot more money than red ones do. We got him a couple of BH bulls, but he went with me somewhere ..I forget where, now..... and he saw this dang nice registered BWF Simm bull. He bought him, and is going to breed him to some of the bigger red angus. I have no doubt those calves will out grow the BH ones.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

My biggest problem with the breed is that many of the foundation animals for the breed are/were carriers of msud.
I personally think that there are far better animals to select for foundation of a "breed"

At this point, I don't know what the difference is between the generic modern "Hereford" and a black Hereford. MSUD had its origins with the polled shorthorn and it is an open secret that Trust was an eighth red angus.
The biggest issue, I see with the Black Hereford is that it takes a long time and a lot of culling to achieve a homozygous black 7/8 Hereford. After each backcross to Hereford, half the calves will be red and of no use to the breeding program. And then to make a homo black bull, only a quarter of those matings will be homozygous black. By my math, the black Hereford would only have 1/16 of the selection room compared to a purebred.

 

[Rmc]

At this point, I don't know what the difference is between the generic modern "Hereford" and a black Hereford. MSUD had its origins with the polled shorthorn and it is an open secret that Trust was an eighth red angus.
The biggest issue, I see with the Black Hereford is that it takes a long time and a lot of culling to achieve a homozygous black 7/8 Hereford. After each backcross to Hereford, half the calves will be red and of no use to the breeding program. And then to make a homo black bull, only a quarter of those matings will be homozygous black. By my math, the black Hereford would only have 1/16 of the selection room compared to a purebred.

Wich is exactly how you had such a huge percentage of the original foundation animals of the herd msud carriers.
They picked less then ideal animals at the beginning and then continued to select for black hides compounding the less then desired traits ,including msud , into the foundation animals in my opinion.
The msud gene was identified in part due to the extremely high numbers of its occurrence in the first black Hereford regestered animals.
It had been reported for years in numerous other breeds but didn't occur at high enough rates to make identification of gene easy or something that researchers were interested in identifying.

 

[Logan52]

Much of the value that made the original F1 Black Whiteface so popular was its hybrid vigor. Once all the back crossing got started in the Black Herefords, this hybrid vigor was watered down. You are left with a mongrelized animal that I would think would be less valuable.
It is hard to beat a crossbred cow bred to a purebred bull for consistency and efficiency.
Also: Anytime that a single trait like color plays a major role in breeding decisions, overall quality suffers.
For these and other reasons, I have never been a fan of the Black Hereford.

 

[redcowsrule33]

It is to the detriment of the Hereford association that they choose not to recognize the BH. No problem, they just created their own registry like red Angus breeders in America had to do. To

Hang on there. Red Angus always existed in the Angus breed. The US breeders chose to not allow them in the registry while in all other countries they are one and the same. A full blood category 1A Red Angus is originally from the same genetic pool as a full blood black angus. The Black Herefords are a product of breeding up and cannot claim the same. Just as there are no full blood black Simmentals, only purebreds. Herefords do not allow breeding up in their herd book so the BH therefore does not qualify. Thus the separate registry.

Maybe that's splitting hairs for some but there is a fundamental difference.

 

[Ky hills]

I just saw these two advertised on FB
Says they are October 22, homozygous black and polled.
From what I understand these are from a Hereford breeder that has been working on the black cattle for while, and I believe they have a good herd of cattle.
As individuals these bulls look pretty good to me, and certainly better than most of the " black " Herefords that I see advertised around here fairly locally. Most that I see are not homozygous black, and thus I see no point in a heterozygous black bull in that capacity.
These look good, but. In my mind pinkeye would still be a concern on at least the first bull, and just a personal preference thing I can't get used to the Hereford look on a black hided animal.
I actually much prefer the look of an Angus/Hereford F1 cross to the look of "black" Herefords.

 

[Brute 23]

The only good thing I see from all the black cattle is the faster they dilute the quality with "black" the faster the fad will fade and we can move on.

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

Just remember Black hair is easy !!!

 

[CCCowman]

If you read the "mission" of the founders of the Black Hereford on the BH website, they were developed first to increase the chances of a black baldy when you use them instead of reds. Even heterozygous ones. People who use grade, commercial, "Angus" bulls often have one that is heterozygous, When bred to red Hereford cows, 50% of the calves will be red baldies. Even more common, so many people have commercial "angus" cows that are heterozygous, When bred to red Hereford bull, 50% of their calves can be red baldies. Change the Herford bull or cows either one to BH, and even if it is hetero, only 25% of the calves could be red baldies. Of course, using a homozygous bull or cow, you will get 100% black baldies. Secondary reason given to use BH, are that the Angus blood cures a lot of the problems associated with Hereford. And in the foundation 5/8ths Herf 3/8ths Angus BHs, fertility is improved over red Herefords. Now days, though, BHs are, or can be, "pure" Hereford in the same sense that a cow that is 7/8ths Simm is called a purebred, or a cow that is 15/16ths Charolais is called a pure bred. It is to the detriment of the Hereford association that they choose not to recognize the BH. No problem, they just created their own registry like red Angus breeders in America had to do. To me, doing it the "breed up" way would have been the smart thing to do. The reason the powers that be in the Hereford Association didn't want to do that, is that they realize there eventually wouldn't be any red Herefords left, that weren't sired by a hetero Black Hereford, or out of a Hetero BH cow. I like it that while BH allows you to breed to registered, polled red Herefords, if the calf comes out red, it can NOT be registered BH. And the Hereford Association won't let you register it either, even if the sire and dam were both BH. If they are both hetero and throw a red calf it can not be registered BH either. Both of these stances just speeds up the process of producing more BHs.
Another reason BHs are growing so popular, is the interest in Red Angus x Black Hereford black baldies.

We do allow red female offspring to be registered. They are designated as a HX.

Some of our best bulls are hetro black. Breed hetro to hetro and it's a 50/50 chance of a black or red calf.