Black Hereford

[elkwc]

How 'bout that we completely agree on that one... who'd have thunk.

So you think the other so called "black breeds" bring something to the table. They give up hybrid vigor just the same. We have tried the Balancers and I've talked to those using "blacks" of other breeds and all are saying the desired hybrid vigor isn't there. A true black baldies gives you that. But I do feel some of the better Black Herefords available now are on the same level as most of the other "black" breeds.

Using any crossbred bull on crossbred cows is a crap shoot. Like it or not black Herefords, Brangus, Beefmaster, SimAngus and all the others that have been crossed aren't made for hybrid vigor. And to make matters worse those that were made to be black are at the bottom of the wood pile. Common cattle sense tells me that breeding for color is about the last trait that really matters when it comes to making a good calf.

I agree with your above statement 100%. I will add a Black Limmie isn't a Limmie, a Black Simmie isn't a Simmie and the same can be said about the other so called black versions of an established breed. The black color is just trying to take advantage of color with no respect to the traits that made a breed unique in what it had to offer.

 

[Bright Raven]

So you think the other so called "black breeds" bring something to the table. They give up hybrid vigor just the same. We have tried the Balancers and I've talked to those using "blacks" of other breeds and all are saying the desired hybrid vigor isn't there. A true black baldies gives you that. But I do feel some of the better Black Herefords available now are on the same level as most of the other "black" breeds.

Using any crossbred bull on crossbred cows is a crap shoot. Like it or not black Herefords, Brangus, Beefmaster, SimAngus and all the others that have been crossed aren't made for hybrid vigor. And to make matters worse those that were made to be black are at the bottom of the wood pile. Common cattle sense tells me that breeding for color is about the last trait that really matters when it comes to making a good calf.

I agree with your above statement 100%. I will add a Black Limmie isn't a Limmie, a Black Simmie isn't a Simmie and the same can be said about the other so called black versions of an established breed. The black color is just trying to take advantage of color with no respect to the traits that made a breed unique in what it had to offer.

A Black Simmental is a Simmental if the Breed Association that maintains the registry recognizes it as a Simmental.

If you don't recognize a Black Limousin as a Limousin, knock yourself out. It is your prerogative.

What is ridiculous about your position is that you don't have the capacity to recognize change. I suppose polled herefords are not Herefords by your logic because the original Herefords were horned. Does knocking the horns off breeds bother you as much as changing the color. If you want to take it to extreme, then why don't you say that nothing short of the original aurochs are cattle?

 

[elkwc]

A polled Hereford is a Hereford only if they test true to Hereford parentage and some don't. Simmentals weren't black originally so an outside source was used to change the color solely for marketing purposes and in many cases they don't perform like the original Simmentals do. A black Simmental or a black of any so called breed is a composite. If they were pure Simmentals or Limmies they wouldn't be blacks. Just because a breed registry recognizes an animal as pure that doesn't make them pure. By your logic an Angus could be a Hereford if the registry would recognize them as such. I look at the truth when looking at cattle and not the politics and marketing gimmicks.
Yes it is my perogitive to not use them. If I was to use one it would because I felt they offered something my herd needed. But I sure wouldn't expect any hybrid vigor.

 

[Bright Raven]

Aurochs are considered the ancestral seed of all the breeds. There are 800 recognized breeds of cattle originating from Aurochs. Where in the continuum of breeding do we say a breed stops?

Your logic suggests that when Simmintals where red and white large frame behemoths that no further advancements in the breed should have been made! Thank goodness everyone does not hold to that concept!

Breeds are a work in progress. There is no sacred point in time where there is a "divine" directive that the breed can no longer be improved.

 

[RanchMan90]

Purists. Just like I would like to have a 12 valve Cummins engine in my f350 with an Allison transmission. Would be practical and efficient but purists hate it. You can't make everyone happy, makes me happy though :2cents:

 

[Muddy]

There's a reason why many breeds need an upgrade. However personally I think the breeds should had kept their traditional colors instead of the black hide. But let's face it, nobody wants giant cattle with extreme traits or being so high maintenance animals.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Aurochs are considered the ancestral seed of all the breeds. There are 800 recognized breeds of cattle originating from Aurochs. Where in the continuum of breeding do we say a breed stops?

Your logic suggests that when Simmintals where red and white large frame behemoths that no further advancements in the breed should have been made! Thank goodness everyone does not hold to that concept!

Breeds are a work in progress. There is no sacred point in time where there is a "divine" directive that the breed can no longer be improved.

The problem with your logic is they are not accepted by the Hereford associations. It is like trying to get Angus to recognize them because they are 3/8.

 

[Bright Raven]

There's a reason why many breeds need an upgrade. However personally I think the breeds should had kept their traditional colors instead of the black hide. But let's face it, nobody wants giant cattle with extreme traits or being so high maintenance animals.

Muddy. Breeders introduced Angus genetics into Simmentals to mitigate the frame score, calving issues, and carcass traits. Coat color just went along for the ride.

 

[Bright Raven]

Aurochs are considered the ancestral seed of all the breeds. There are 800 recognized breeds of cattle originating from Aurochs. Where in the continuum of breeding do we say a breed stops?

Your logic suggests that when Simmintals where red and white large frame behemoths that no further advancements in the breed should have been made! Thank goodness everyone does not hold to that concept!

Breeds are a work in progress. There is no sacred point in time where there is a "divine" directive that the breed can no longer be improved.

The problem with your logic is they are not accepted by the Hereford associations. It is like trying to get Angus to recognize them because they are 3/8.

CB, sorry, does not make sense! Why would Simmentals even be considered by the Hereford Associations?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Makes plenty you have shotguned this thread with your breed up argument
for improvement.

 

[Bright Raven]

Makes plenty you have shotguned this thread with your breed up argument
for improvement.

CB, breed up is not where we are now, that was 4 pages back. The issue is the concept of making improvement in a breed by introducing traits that are more desirable. Breed up is just the opposite. Breed up is concentrating the genes that are already prevalent.

My question is what do Simmentals have to do with the Hereford Association? If you just got confused, say so. I am not the booger man.

 

[Rafter S]

There's a reason why many breeds need an upgrade. However personally I think the breeds should had kept their traditional colors instead of the black hide. But let's face it, nobody wants giant cattle with extreme traits or being so high maintenance animals.

Muddy. Breeders introduced Angus genetics into Simmentals to mitigate the frame score, calving issues, and carcass traits. Coat color just went along for the ride.

My :bs: meter pegged out when I read that.

 

[Rafter S]

Aurochs are considered the ancestral seed of all the breeds. There are 800 recognized breeds of cattle originating from Aurochs. Where in the continuum of breeding do we say a breed stops?

Your logic suggests that when Simmintals where red and white large frame behemoths that no further advancements in the breed should have been made! Thank goodness everyone does not hold to that concept!

Breeds are a work in progress. There is no sacred point in time where there is a "divine" directive that the breed can no longer be improved.

I of course can't speak for others, but I feel that breeds should be improved by selecting within the breed, and not by introducing other breeds. Especially if the only "improvement" is to change the hair color.

 

[dun]

Another case of fitting breeds into a niche that they weren;t originally developed for. What is considered a proper size for Simmenthal cattle in the US are not what is wanted in europe. For our purposes the smaller cattle are an improvement they would not be in europe

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Another case of fitting breeds into a niche that they weren;t originally developed for. What is considered a proper size for Simmenthal cattle in the US are not what is wanted in europe. For our purposes the smaller cattle are an improvement they would not be in europe

Draft animals still in demand in Europe huh?

 

[WalnutCrest]

<snip>

The only composite I have seen work as well is a Brangus Hereford cross.
It's the Brahman in the Brangus as the Hereford x Brahman is the most pop in a F-1. They just happen to be the most diverse.

<snip>

I'd be interested in watching a true F1 Aubrac x. Grey Brahman work down south ... so much so that I'd contribute the semen to anyone with a few pedigreed (and nice) Grey Brahman breeder has any interest in a small experiment.

I know a small pedigree operation I will ask him next time I see him.
Run into at the feed store every couple months or so.

Cool. Thanks.

Only ask though if you think his critters are good representatives of the breed.

 

[Bright Raven]

Aurochs are considered the ancestral seed of all the breeds. There are 800 recognized breeds of cattle originating from Aurochs. Where in the continuum of breeding do we say a breed stops?

Your logic suggests that when Simmintals where red and white large frame behemoths that no further advancements in the breed should have been made! Thank goodness everyone does not hold to that concept!

Breeds are a work in progress. There is no sacred point in time where there is a "divine" directive that the breed can no longer be improved.

I of course can't speak for others, but I feel that breeds should be improved by selecting within the breed, and not by introducing other breeds. Especially if the only "improvement" is to change the hair color.

You live in a Bovine Fairyland.

 

[Bright Raven]

I am content with my cows. They just happen to be called Simmentals. But what I see are animals of the species Bos taurus. You guys who live in this Bovine Breed Fairy land, IMO cannot see the forest. All you see are the trees.

Open your eyes. Cattle are wonderful creatures but unless you are Hindu, the breed they belong to is not sacred.

 

[elkwc]

Aurochs are considered the ancestral seed of all the breeds. There are 800 recognized breeds of cattle originating from Aurochs. Where in the continuum of breeding do we say a breed stops?

Your logic suggests that when Simmintals where red and white large frame behemoths that no further advancements in the breed should have been made! Thank goodness everyone does not hold to that concept!

Breeds are a work in progress. There is no sacred point in time where there is a "divine" directive that the breed can no longer be improved.

I of course can't speak for others, but I feel that breeds should be improved by selecting within the breed, and not by introducing other breeds. Especially if the only "improvement" is to change the hair color.

I agree with your statement.

 

[elkwc]

Aurochs are considered the ancestral seed of all the breeds. There are 800 recognized breeds of cattle originating from Aurochs. Where in the continuum of breeding do we say a breed stops?

Your logic suggests that when Simmintals where red and white large frame behemoths that no further advancements in the breed should have been made! Thank goodness everyone does not hold to that concept!

Breeds are a work in progress. There is no sacred point in time where there is a "divine" directive that the breed can no longer be improved.

No like stated by another breeder advancements can and in my opinion should be made within the breed. You are trying to put words in our statements. I haven't seen where anyone said a breed should no longer be improved. Just like I have never said a bad thing about your cattle or any other Black Simmie breeders cattle. I've seen a lot I like. Fire Sweep has some and we have a neighbor just 3/4 of a mile from one of our pastures that raises top quality Black Simmies. But I will never consider them Simmentals anymore than I consider a Black Baldie a Hereford or an Angus. They are a good option for some breeders and we might even try one someday. The one drawback I see is they don't sell as well around here even with the black color especially if they have the narrow white face.