Unmistakable of Branded

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NEFarmwife said:
CreekAngus said:
Branded: You're getting wound up over nothing. Most of the comments you got were actually quite flattering, folks told you they don't like this bull and emphasized you have shown us far better. Take the kudos, along with the criticism. You got some nice cattle, this bull just doesn't seem to be one of them. I do have a question and this isn't a catch ya question, but an honest one, do you find it odd Square B hasn't DNA'ed any progeny out of Elation? I will admit I'm not in the know and just going off what you stated. I'm starting to like the bull battery at Square B, I'm thinking of buying a cow bred to Legendary.

We bred a few to Legendary. Our semen guy pushed him heavily. We didn't buy any ourselves but cleaned up with him from a couple straws we bought from one of our A.I. customers.

Apparently, he's quite popular around here but he's being pushed hard too.
Out here I haven't seen him pushed, but I'm in Dairy country and our Select Sires guy gets excited just to be able to sell Angus Semen and then I end up ordering a bull they no longer have or one that ain't producing.
 
Branded: I was being honest with you about Elation, I figured they ought to have the most Elation cattle on the ground in the country. Find it odd, none are DNA'ed. Then again maybe they did and GS or Zoetis is thought they were Creek's cattle so they wont get to them until Fall. I sent sample in and waiting and waiting and waiting...got an email they got them, but still waiting.
 
When i decided to go down the purebred path the best advice i was given is "you have to learn to be your cattles harshest critic" This way when someone points out flaws in your cattle you are way ahead of them and not offended. I am now passing this advice to Brooky.
 
NEFarmwife said:
The reason there are no Elation calves that have genomics is because most folks wait till they wean to DNA test/register a calf. Some, even longer.

Many reasons as to why. We don't keep all our Registered cattle. We cull them as hard as we do our commercial. Why spend the money on something you're going to send to the fat pen?

We input those calving records in the AAA calving book so that it's info is recorded. We'll spend the same $7 you do to register but we aren't throwing our money away on a culled calf.

I was at a co-op a few days ago and saw a good dozen elation calves. That was a small group of pairs too.

They're out there. People just aren't throwing money at them yet.

I don't disagree with what you said.

All I'm saying is that of the two that are DNA proven, they are here on Branded.

I'm trying to understand why when someone pays $50 for a straw, and all the other associated costs involved, why a $55 Angus GS test and and genetic bundle along with a $7 registration is such a big deal. It's pocket change.

I understand if one is not confident of their own cooking, but on our operation we register every calf from the beginning, unless there is something terribly wrong which hasn't been the case.

As for culling, I'm curious not just with you, but with all the hard core cull oriented people on CT. At what age do you cull your females. Yearlings? 2-4 years old? What age? I like to see how cows develop, I like to see longevity. I like to see how a cows feet look after 10-12 years of abuse. I talked to someone the other day that just had a 24 year old cow give birth to calf. She was not registered, she was commercial. To me that's a h.ll of a fine momma. If you are kicking them out the door at 4-5 years old you will never know what your cows can truly do. Of course you may be culling strictly on their genomic enhanced EPD's, in which case I understand. However, If they don't make the cut on EPD's why not turn them into recips, buy more land and expand? High quality recips seem to be in demand.
 
Redgully said:
When i decided to go down the purebred path the best advice i was given is "you have to learn to be your cattles harshest critic" This way when someone points out flaws in your cattle you are way ahead of them and not offended. I am now passing this advice to Brooky.

My standards would probably make most people quit the business after a year. Financially, physically, and mentally.
 
As far as culling goes, I think the majority of breeders (commercial and registered alike) keep culling as cattle age. There isn't a set window. If she falls apart at 5 months, 5 years or 15 years, she is culled. The only difference is how many generations of her offspring need to be put under the microscope along with her....

I just tested my bull battery yesterday. Angus, Limousin and Red Angus. 18 Months old up to 9 years 8 months old. It was an event that may have meant culling any given one of them (luckily, that was not the case). Each time I put eyes or hands on them, it is a test of whether they stay or go.....
 
CreekAngus said:
Branded: I was being honest with you about Elation, I figured they ought to have the most Elation cattle on the ground in the country. Find it odd, none are DNA'ed. Then again maybe they did and GS or Zoetis is thought they were Creek's cattle so they wont get to them until Fall. I sent sample in and waiting and waiting and waiting...got an email they got them, but still waiting.

Or it could be that a bull is sold in February, by the time he is collected it's around June. Most people don't breed cattle in June, except Branded and some other adventurous souls who don't mind getting calves no matter what time of year it is, or what the weather is, they just want the calf ASAP no matter what. People told me, it's very hard to get cows and heifers pregnant in 95+ degree weather. That's might be true for most, but we make it happen here.

Square B probably waited to use Elation so it would fit into their breeding window. I assume they used him in November 2018. Which would explain why calves aren't on the ground yet. I could be wrong. We used Elation within a day of receiving the canister.

I keep a whole slew of mommas on standby for the second I get those straws in my possession. Some people could care less about being first, which is fine, that is not my modus operandi.
 
Boot Jack Bulls said:
As far as culling goes, I think the majority of breeders (commercial and registered alike) keep culling as cattle age. There isn't a set window. If she falls apart at 5 months, 5 years or 15 years, she is culled. The only difference is how many generations of her offspring need to be put under the microscope along with her....

I just tested my bull battery yesterday. Angus, Limousin and Red Angus. 18 Months old up to 9 years 8 months old. It was an event that may have meant culling any given one of them (luckily, that was not the case). Each time I put eyes or hands on them, it is a test of whether they stay or go.....

I like hearing that you have bulls going strong at 10 years old. Like I said, holding up well as the years stack up is priceless to me.
 
************* said:
Boot Jack Bulls said:
As far as culling goes, I think the majority of breeders (commercial and registered alike) keep culling as cattle age. There isn't a set window. If she falls apart at 5 months, 5 years or 15 years, she is culled. The only difference is how many generations of her offspring need to be put under the microscope along with her....

I just tested my bull battery yesterday. Angus, Limousin and Red Angus. 18 Months old up to 9 years 8 months old. It was an event that may have meant culling any given one of them (luckily, that was not the case). Each time I put eyes or hands on them, it is a test of whether they stay or go.....

I like hearing that you have bulls going strong at 10 years old. Like I said, holding up well as the years stack up is priceless to me.
I do to! That means more money in my pocket and more daughters in production! And, gasp! this one is my BR Midland son!
 
I like longevity as well.. My current bull is going on 7 years old, his sire was sold at that age and was working fine, From the price I got I suspect he went to work somewhere else. My next bull calf is the granddaughter of a cow that had 16 calves and her momma had 14.. His momma is one I consider a pretty ideal cow for my conditions, I want more of that.


I've been to some livestock shows, and seen pictures of bulls, and I wondered how in the world someone would bring a cat hammed bull like that to show off... One of said pictures I might have even found on here but can't remember where I saw it.
 
Branded most operations can't just buy more land to expand, money and availability is the culprit. You manage your operation like you have no management at all. There's two distinct seasons for selling registered cattle, because most folks manage for either a fall or spring breeding season. And when it comes to culling, most folks whether their commercial or registered start deciding once the calf hits the ground. I don't give a darn about EPD'S - DNA, momma - daddy if the calf doesn't have the look I want she's on the cull list. My take on keeping older cows so you know what you have is BS. If she's any good I have her calves in my herd already. Any cow that dies cost your operation money, and if it's an old cow you failed as a manager. My herd is supposed to be getting better with every calf crop, if I do my job. I've failed doing my job a couple of years in the last 10, but still have more heifers that I'd like to keep than places to put them. I'm very amazed that more folks don't have this problem.
You have some really nice cattle and property so your doing something right, or you have a really thick wallet to play the game.
 
I love Boot Jack to analyze my cattle. She has a GREAT eye - good judge!
Obviously, I cull from the day they are born, since like 90% of my bull crop is banded at day 1.
In all reality, "most" calves born can't really be analyzed until they are a few months old. If I have a structure problem or temperament problem on a heifer, she is in the kill pen ASAP. Cattle are culled as an on-going daily job.
I agree with previous post - you need to learn how to SEE your cattle and analyze them. Barn blindness is a real thing.
I am not directing these comments AT you BH. Some people will post a picture and they are soooo proud of their animal and it is a real POS. I don't comment unless it is asked for.
 
************* said:
I've read your comments, can't say I agree with them. This bull came out of two top Angus operations, McCumber and Stone Gate. So you are basically saying what you think of them.

I will get you all a rear view, he is not lacking in muscle.

I have a second Unmistakable bull, he's almost a carbon copy.

They both have length to spare and plenty of room to grow.

https://www.purebeefgenetics.com/sires/angus/occ-unmistakable-946u/

Those two outfits have as much variation in quality within each of their calf crops as anybody and everybody. No matter how good of cattle an operation has, it's not like they're doing a gate cut to select herd sires.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
I love Boot Jack to analyze my cattle. She has a GREAT eye - good judge!
Obviously, I cull from the day they are born, since like 90% of my bull crop is banded at day 1.
In all reality, "most" calves born can't really be analyzed until they are a few months old. If I have a structure problem or temperament problem on a heifer, she is in the kill pen ASAP. Cattle are culled as an on-going daily job.
I agree with previous post - you need to learn how to SEE your cattle and analyze them. Barn blindness is a real thing.
I am not directing these comments AT you BH. Some people will post a picture and they are soooo proud of their animal and it is a real POS. I don't comment unless it is asked for.

If 90% of your bulls are banded on day 1 that makes me wonder about the parents. Are your cows and the sires you use having that much trouble creating something noteworthy? Or are you the ultimate perfectionist?

Temperament issues, from what I have seen originate from the owner, not the animal. Some are calmer than others, but I don't have any in the herd that I cannot touch in an open field. I had a guy over the other day that was telling me about a group of cows that he had looked at buying, he said they ran to the woods as he approached the fence line. That spoke volumes about the owner of those cows. I could probably sum up his entire operation just from that short conversation. Producers might benefit from looking inward at their own temperament issues, and fix those first.

I agree that not every animal is a superstar, that would be a foolish notion to entertain, but if one were to cull for every issue, one could cull their entire herd down to nothing. My herd is not perfection, but with careful AI choices, it's improving rapidly. If I have a heifer that I think is marginal, I will breed her AI to a top sire and see what happens, many times, the offspring do not resemble the momma, they are better, and I get a new calf to work with, again with AI, and the momma can become a future ET recip. I'm building towards a herd of at least 200 recips, which I know if developed from day 1 will be healthy and not bring any disease or issues into my herd. People think that an average or below average cow will work fine as a recip, but I think that if you want a calf that performs, the momma must be above average. Low quality cows don't raise high quality calves, but that is just my opinion.

Now as to ignoring DNA tests and genomic-enhanced EPD's, this proved not to be a great strategy in the dairy business, where I'm pretty sure the VERY BEST dairy operators paid close attention to the numbers and survived. We don't show our cattle here at Branded, we aren't trying to win the local contest for prettiest steer, we are breeding for performance. We get offers frequently to show our heifers, but I'm not interested. While I appreciate and strive for the best phenotype that I can achieve, ignoring genomic-enhanced EPD's sounds like a recipe for disaster. Unmistakable, has been beat up on CT with no mercy at all, but I assure you his progeny will rank higher than most of the entire Angus herd for traits that matter most to ME, which is namely heifer pregnancy (top 5%) and milk (top 10%). Most commercial operations that do not test their cattle have no clue where their cows rank, and most of the time no clue where the sire ranks in those categories. With Angus GS, I know that Unmistakable's progeny will give me daughters that milk well, and get pregnant fast. I can always AI those daughters to a sire like Vermilion Spur E143 (AAA# 18838120) or Hoover Dam and build from that, but at least I know I've stacked important maternal traits into that progeny. If I were to rely solely on phenotype, I really don't have any clue about what I'm putting into that progeny. That's a fact whether you choose to accept it or not. I like heavy milking cows and heifers, and I like them to get pregnant on the first service, that might not matter to some, but it's very important for what I'm trying to achieve.
 
I am extremely picky as to which ones I leave intact. Unlike you, I do not believe every bull born should go out and multiply. Granted, probably only 10% of my bulls "need" castrating, but I do not have a great bull market here in Upstate NY. If I sell 3-5 a year, I'm doing well. And, I don't keep any bulls past 9 months of age, which is not the easiest bull market. I really don't need to explain my program, but my weaned heifers are my money making market.
I mentioned culling for temperament, because it is important to me. I cannot remember the last female I culled for temperament - well, yes I do. 7 years ago when my nephew came to live with me, I had a 2 year old that hunted him down. She got shipped for hamburg. I have bus loads of students and groups visit my farm. Many city people that don't have a clue how to behave in a field with cows. My cows intimidate some, because they will come over & lick their shoes or pull on their shirt tails.
I do not think anyone IGNORES DNA or EPD's, but they are a TOOL. You do seem to forget that.
No one has said your bull won't go out and breed cows/heifers. If you put out a picture/video, you need to learn to listen to comments and learn from them. Quit bristling up - it's annoying - you seem to do it on purpose.
 
Branded.. you should be writing books or articles for the amount of time and effort you put in here.

not downing it just saying you would be good at it.
 
************* said:
Temperament issues, from what I have seen originate from the owner, not the animal. Some are calmer than others, but I don't have any in the herd that I cannot touch in an open field. I had a guy over the other day that was telling me about a group of cows that he had looked at buying, he said they ran to the woods as he approached the fence line.

Docility, behavior, temperament, etc. Are inheritable characteristics or traits. Anyone who knows their cows and halter trains becomes very familiar with the behavior in some cow pedigrees. I have a cow that regardless of the bull you breed her to, her calves are knot heads. From the first time you slip on the halter, they fight it. They never settle down. When you lead them, they are constantly in defense mode.

I have other cows that every calf they have had comes born to lead. You put the halter on once and let them stand. From then on, they stand like a statue. Bartlett's calves come "born to lead". It is truly amazing! You just start walking and they walk in cadence with your step.

On the other hand, I understand what you mean. If you constantly abuse the most gentle cow in the herd, she will become conditioned to be shy and even crazy.

In 2009, I bought 4 cows from my brother. I backed up to his barn and he and dad loaded them. As they drove them toward where the trailer was parked at one end of the driveway of the barn, if one balked, they beat her with a tobacco stick. Anyone raised on a farm in Kentucky knows what a tobacco stick is for - to beat cows with. Dad and Henry handle cows with tobacco sticks. The harder you hit them and the louder you yell, the better cattleman you are.

When I let those 4 cows out on my farm, they ran as far from me as they could get. It took me a while to catch them near the front of the farm. I tried to get them in a pen made of portable gates so I could pour them with a parasiticide. By the time I had them poured, most of the parasiticide was on the ground and they nearly crushed me about 5 times. Then and there I decided if I was going to do this, I was going to have a state of the art handling facility. The first time I got them in the facility, Big Bertha cleared the top of the crowding pen and said "adios". And she weighed almost 2000 pounds when I sold her. These were huge cows. I got the other three in the chute and got them poured.

Fast forward a year. After a year of treating them without a tobacco stick, I could pour them standing in the field.

Yes, BAD BEHAVIOR CAN ALSO BE A CONDITIONED RESPONSE.
 

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