Hereford who is black

[Hoser]

Black herfs have made their way up to Alberta. I've read countless comments making fun of them but I thought I'd give this guy a try because calves like him sell well in my area. He was born last May and was developed on green feed and alfalfa. Give me your honest opinions.

 

[MissouriMeadows]

The black hereford breed is continuing to make strides in quality and in membership. You calf appears to be a pretty thick calf. Is he purebred? What % hereford is he?

 

[Hoser]

The black hereford breed is continuing to make strides in quality and in membership. You calf appears to be a pretty thick calf. Is he purebred? What % hereford is he?

Thanks, he is pretty thick. He's 75% hereford. Since he's out of an F1 and a purebred sire is he considered an F2?

 

[MissouriMeadows]

I guess you could call him an F2. To reach Purebred status he would need to be over 87.5% Hereford. A lot of good bulls are being developed that haven't quite reached the 87.5% threshold yet. My current herd sire is 89% if I remember correctly. I have several registered traditional 100% hereford heifers I am thinking of AIing to a 75% black hereford in a month or two. The calves out of that mating will meet PB requirements provided they have a black hide.

 

[MissouriMeadows]

There are a few 99% Black Herefords floating around out there too.

 

[Nesikep]

I'd be a little wary of chasing purebred percentage numbers, to me it's an indicator that the black hide is all they cared about and other important selection criteria may have fallen by the wayside

Your bull looks pretty deep, just looks like a black baldy to me rather than Herf though

 

[Brute 23]

He's a good looking animal but his ability to bring uniformity to your calf crop will be as uncertain as using any other crossbred bull.

 

[Hoser]

He's a good looking animal but his ability to bring uniformity to your calf crop will be as uncertain as using any other crossbred bull.

If my herd is all angus hereford crossed cows of different percentages than is there much difference in uniformity in using a black hereford rather than a pure angus or hereford?

 

[elkwc]

I find these comments about Black Herefords and them siring a lack uniformity but some of them promote black Simmi's, Black Limmi's, Black Char's, ect. There is no difference they all hot there black hide from an Angus so the uniformity of one won't be any higher than the other.

And I'm not a fan of Black Herefords but feel many are as pure as some registered Herefords. I currently use 2 Horned Herefords and have used a polled bull. If I'm going to use a Hereford I want the full benefit of hybrid vigor.

 

[snoopdog]

I think he looks good, but when I look at a bull, I wanna see his equipment first thing.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Black Hereford brings nothing to the table IMO. The F-1 black baldie from Hereford Angus cross is maximizing hybrid vigor, future crosses is a road trip to minimizing.
If you want black hide run an Angus bull, everything else is just a septic tank of angus genetics.

 

[Nesikep]

Black Hereford brings nothing to the table IMO. The F-1 black baldie from Hereford Angus cross is maximizing hybrid vigor, future crosses is a road trip to minimizing.
If you want black hide run an Angus bull, everything else is just a septic tank of angus genetics.

agreed...
If you run a black herf on red herf cows, you should end up with a black, but herf marked calf that will stand out... whether the buyers like it or you have a niche, you at least have something that stands out, though you won't get any/much hybrid vigor
If you run the black herf on Angus cows and end up with black baldies/brockles, a red herf would have done the same for you, with the exception you should have homo-black calves which may have some extra replacement value

 

[Nesikep]

I find these comments about Black Herefords and them siring a lack uniformity but some of them promote black Simmi's, Black Limmi's, Black Char's, ect. There is no difference they all hot there black hide from an Angus so the uniformity of one won't be any higher than the other.

And I'm not a fan of Black Herefords but feel many are as pure as some registered Herefords. I currently use 2 Horned Herefords and have used a polled bull. If I'm going to use a Hereford I want the full benefit of hybrid vigor.

I think it depends on the individual animal, the percentage angus, and how long they've been bred that way.

if you have a 25/75 Angus/Simm cross that's been bred for 10 generations consistently, you're probably going to have consistent calves from it... but if you breed a 50/50 cow to a Simm bull, I don't see that as being consistent (reliably)

 

[Brute 23]

He's a good looking animal but his ability to bring uniformity to your calf crop will be as uncertain as using any other crossbred bull.

If my herd is all angus hereford crossed cows of different percentages than is there much difference in uniformity in using a black hereford rather than a pure angus or hereford?

Yes, when you use a pure bred bull you have locked in 50% of that whole calf crop's genetics. Especially since by the sounds of it you are not buying a locked in composite. You bought a stair step to the end goal.

I'm always really nervous breeding back in to a breed. Meaning if you have Herford cross cows and you breed back to a Herford if they are not really top animals on both sides you can get some funky stuff rear its head.

For the record I'm not a fan of Black Hereford, Black Sim, Black Beefmaster, or any of the other stuff as herd bulls. It's not political... it's just not functional. Its one thing if your paying auction barn prices for a crossbred bull because you just want a calf. It's another to pay a premium for one thinking it will advance your herd.

 

[MissouriMeadows]

I think it depends on the individual animal, the percentage angus, and how long they've been bred that way.

if you have a 25/75 Angus/Simm cross that's been bred for 10 generations consistently, you're probably going to have consistent calves from it... but if you breed a 50/50 cow to a Simm bull, I don't see that as being consistent (reliably)

Not to stir the pot Nesikep but just a few posts up you were discrediting chasing purebred status (a high percentage animal) and here it appears you are advising it. Honestly, I used to be on the Black Hereford discrediting bandwagon as well. Look it up under my previous handle. The fact is it is no different than any other breed that went black and if AHA had done it or allowed it there would be no such thing as a Black Hereford breed, it would just be another version of Hereford just like all the other breeds.

 

[Ky hills]

To me a "black Hereford" is no different than a black Simmental, black Limousin, etc. I'm torn on the subject of hybrid vigor. Yes it's real and yes it has a place and benefit. The way the markets have been pushing black hided cattle, most herds are primarily Angus or high percentage Angus with some black continental mixed in. The concept of hybrid vigor has been lost by a lot. On the subject of consistency, I would think that a "black Hereford" being a composite cross of two British breeds would have a consistency fairly reliable carcass wise especially when being used on a British breed base cowherd.

 

[MissouriMeadows]

It's not just a matter of chasing percentage numbers, IMO it is a matter of breeding in the consistency many of you claim is a major flaw in the breed. It is also about achieving as much of a purebred Hereford animal as you can so you can maximize hybrid vigor to your customer. Every breed that has an open herd book (pretty much all of them) has the same issue that people claim Black Herefords have honestly. Its just a matter of consumer acceptance and sale barn acceptance. Honestly, there is no problem there so all other hold ups are just a matter of personal opinion or perception. If other breeds were labeled black simmental or black limousin would that change your perception of them?

Black Herefords have also been around as long as black limousins, black simmental, etc. so the idea of those breeds being more established to justify their consistency doesn't hold that much water. The difference is the other breeds were promoted by their mother breed association. Black Herefords didn't get that luxury and what they have gained, they have done it by proving themselves in the field, not a breeds magazine or the big pockets of a handful of breeders in the show ring.

 

[Nesikep]

I think it depends on the individual animal, the percentage angus, and how long they've been bred that way.

if you have a 25/75 Angus/Simm cross that's been bred for 10 generations consistently, you're probably going to have consistent calves from it... but if you breed a 50/50 cow to a Simm bull, I don't see that as being consistent (reliably)

Not to stir the pot Nesikep but just a few posts up you were discrediting chasing purebred status (a high percentage animal) and here it appears you are advising it. Honestly, I used to be on the Black Hereford discrediting bandwagon as well. Look it up under my previous handle. The fact is it is no different than any other breed that went black and if AHA had done it or allowed it there would be no such thing as a Black Hereford breed, it would just be another version of Hereford just like all the other breeds.

No, it's not different from any other breed, and my criticism would stand for any of them..
I remember you posting about your previous handle but I can't remember what it is now!

To get to 99% PB, it takes about 7 generations, that's 14 years.. Seeing as a homo-black angus bull on a herf cow will have a hetero black calves, and those animals will only have 50% black hided calves, you better start out with a MASSIVE herd..
I noticed in my breeding I've had good animals be genetic dead ends or mysteriously have problems crop up..
After you get to 99% PB, you're still going to have to breed two animals of that generation an average of 4 times to get a single homo-black version.
I know I'm not terribly in the loop, but unless they've been working diligently on this for many decades, I just don't think the quality of the animal is going to be there.. I'm still weeding out problems from 30 years ago myself, and herf's have plenty of bad traits to begin with

 

[MissouriMeadows]

There aren't very many 99%'ers out there, just a few as I am sure is true of all the other black beasts out there and I appreciate that you understand that the product of black herefords is the same as the black variety of any breed. There are some pretty large herds out there that have given the breed a shot in the arm. One larger outfit sold 91 breeding age bulls at their last spring production sale and then they will sell more in a sale in the fall. But talking about large numbered herds is all a p'ing contest to some degree and numbers don't ensure quality or anything else for that matter. I agree that some lines are going to be dead ends, that's true of all breeds, not an exception to black herefords. Most of my herd is around 90% or purebred traditional hereford that I have cherry picked to help me develop black herefords that I want. I can also use any angus blood I see fit to introduce into my herd if I wanted to build up from an f1 program. (talk about a massive bull battery having the selection of all angus and hereford sires at my disposal provided they are free of all genetic defects) I am mostly hetero black but any of my offspring any given year out of my black cows can be homo black. It's not necessarily looking at it as 4 years for a homo black calf but rather 25% of your calf crop every year can be homo black, some years more, some years less. If you have a homo bull, then on hetero females 50% of your calf crop and so on. Like I said, I don't have a homo black bull and am not stressed about a homo black bull because I am not single trait selecting for color. Homo color will come in time and patience is a virtue as anyone who has dealt in cattle certainly understands. lol. I'm sticking with developing solid hetero females that I can build a foundation on and will progress to homo black naturally. I am also using AI to select hereford sires on my black females, hetero or not because I am focusing on a solid foundation first.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

The black hereford breed is continuing to make strides in quality and in membership. You calf appears to be a pretty thick calf. Is he purebred? What % hereford is he?

Thanks, he is pretty thick. He's 75% hereford. Since he's out of an F1 and a purebred sire is he considered an F2?

Though it don't really matter with him..he would not be considered a true F2 ..an F2 is still the same 50/50 breed percentages..personally I'd rather him be 3/4 blood of one, or the other..the bull is nice, I believe its gonna take alotta line breeding to get the black Herefords too the point I'd trust them too breed true and replicate theirselves aleast produce a calf as good or better than, in crossbreeding ..a good bull will mark the calf crop..if not all the pressure is on momma too knock out the kinks..