Hereford who is black

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simme

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I keep reading posts here that say there is no consistency in calves unless you use a purebred bull. I am no expert on the subject, but my observations make me question that. An example is Gibbs Farms in Alabama. They have about 800 mama cows. They have been breeding simmental and sim-angus for almost 30 years. Most of their cows and most of the bulls they use are Sim-angus. Some purebred simmental and a few purebred angus, but mostly the crossbred. Their calf crop is uniform. They had their 15th annual bull and female sale last November - selling about 300 head per year now - herd bulls and replacements. They average around $4000 on the yearling bulls - selling all over the US. They send their steers to the feedlot with retained ownership for over 15 years and get carcass data back on them. They have sold many bulls into the AI studs. They seem to be successful with their crossbreds.
 

Warren Allison

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Hoser said:
I mean the Brahman composites.
Two of the most valuable resources I have found on this forumn, is this pdf file @Caustic Burno has posted, and this youtube video on heteratosis that several have posted. Look at this video starting at about the 7 minute mark. The best cross with the most genetic diversity, is Hereford and Angus, especially Line 1 Herefords, This cross gives you the highest level of hybrid vigor. Both of these breeds will do well in Canada. IF you wanted to raise replacements, then as you can see in Caustic's pdf, Brahma bulls on these cows will be the best cross for the most hybrid vigor. A herd of Brahma cows might not do well in Canadian winters, but you could keep a Brahma bull warm pretty easily. The F1 calves would do as good as their baldy mothers in the winter as well.

@Hoser , from what I have gathered reading these boards, red cattle aren't docked as much in Canada as down here, so you could use Red Angus to cross with Herefords as well as black. And, if you found that you really are too far north for half Brahma, you might look at Chianina bulls for that 3rd breed terminal cross. Chianina, like Longhorn, are as disease, insect and heat resistant as Brahma, but like Longhorn, they thrive in cold climates. You are getting Continental genetics, and the Chianina are as genetically removed from Hereford and Angus as Brahmas are
 

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skeeter swatter

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I'd be a little wary of chasing purebred percentage numbers, to me it's an indicator that the black hide is all they cared about and other important selection criteria may have fallen by the wayside

Your bull looks pretty deep, just looks like a black baldy to me rather than Herf though
THE BLACK HIDE IS THE WHOLE IDEA
 

kentuckyguy

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I think there’s plenty of proof out there that SimAngus bulls can make some nice calves.

Breed what’s appealing to you and makes you happy. Breed cattle to look and perform how you like them.

My personal goal is to breed cattle that thrive in my environment.
 

Nesikep

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Stop with breeding percentage bulls to your cows. The ONLY way for consistency in your calf crop is to breed purebred bulls to your cow herd. Most small cow/calf operations own commercial cows bred from who knows where. Consistency puts more money in your pocket than color. If your not doing it, get some help dehorning, ear tagging, castrating and vaccinating. Two months before you sell your calf crop (bob 2 to 3 inches off the bottom of their tails). Stop keeping your heifers unless they are true F1's (both parents being purebreds). When its time to take your calf crop to town -- sell all your calves as no tags, have the sale barn sort them together as to the same size, steers vs heifers, color. {Sell Consistency}
No darned way I'm selling my heifer calves to go buy something I don't have really good history on.
Selling consistency is definitely good and certainly pays, but there's a few ways to get there. I'd say the first thing you gotta do is make up your mind on what a good cow looks like to you, Size, build, color, market acceptance, etc, and then look at breeds with those kinds of animals. It took me a LONG time to figure it out for myself.
I've raised a few of my own crossbred bulls, and one of them in particular has been incredibly consistent in what he produced.. every calf is a spitting image of their mother.. if you like the mommas, that's a great thing.


Two of the most valuable resources I have found on this forumn, is this pdf file @Caustic Burno has posted, and this youtube video on heteratosis that several have posted. Look at this video starting at about the 7 minute mark. The best cross with the most genetic diversity, is Hereford and Angus, especially Line 1 Herefords, This cross gives you the highest level of hybrid vigor. Both of these breeds will do well in Canada. IF you wanted to raise replacements, then as you can see in Caustic's pdf, Brahma bulls on these cows will be the best cross for the most hybrid vigor. A herd of Brahma cows might not do well in Canadian winters, but you could keep a Brahma bull warm pretty easily. The F1 calves would do as good as their baldy mothers in the winter as well.
I've seen some of the Lentz herefords, they were wide and meaty without being big, but I didn't like the looks of them at all, especially the udders were awful.. the true stereotypical turnip shaped teats herefords have been known for... 100 years of linebreeding to end up with those traits good and well cemented in ain't for me



This is one of my first timers that I think is going to be growing up to be a pretty ideal cow for me
20210222_104725.jpg

This was her 3 months ago
Dusty.JPG
 

Ky hills

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No darned way I'm selling my heifer calves to go buy something I don't have really good history on.
Selling consistency is definitely good and certainly pays, but there's a few ways to get there. I'd say the first thing you gotta do is make up your mind on what a good cow looks like to you, Size, build, color, market acceptance, etc, and then look at breeds with those kinds of animals. It took me a LONG time to figure it out for myself.
I've raised a few of my own crossbred bulls, and one of them in particular has been incredibly consistent in what he produced.. every calf is a spitting image of their mother.. if you like the mommas, that's a great thing.



I've seen some of the Lentz herefords, they were wide and meaty without being big, but I didn't like the looks of them at all, especially the udders were awful.. the true stereotypical turnip shaped teats herefords have been known for... 100 years of linebreeding to end up with those traits good and well cemented in ain't for me



This is one of my first timers that I think is going to be growing up to be a pretty ideal cow for me
View attachment 2841

This was her 3 months ago
View attachment 2839
I'm in agreement with you on not selling heifers, we've put in a lot of time and effort into getting the cowherd in a good direction, and keeping heifers has been a key part of that.
We are currently using a crossbred bull, 3/4 Angus 1/4 Hereford, he goes back to some good cows in our herd as well as having some good bulls behind him. We also have a young Braford x SimAngus bull that may get used some this spring.
 

ccr

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Dang, I thought breeding quality animals was the idea... the black hide is about the least important part of the animal as far as real value goes
I agree but around here black will get you about a dime more.

Would like to try a black white face bull for next calf crop for these red angus cows.
 

Warren Allison

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I agree but around here black will get you about a dime more.

Would like to try a black white face bull for next calf crop for these red angus cows.
And that is exactly why the Black Hereford breed was developed. If you breed a registered BB Black Hereford bull to those red angus, you will get all black baldy calves. Using a black baldy bull, a half black angus half hereford , half of the calves will be red .
 

Warren Allison

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Dang, I thought breeding quality animals was the idea... the black hide is about the least important part of the animal as far as real value goes
Well, the value of anything, is the dollar amount someone is willing to part with to aquire it. 2 carcasses hanging in a plant, with all things being equal....weight , marbling etc. .. and one was a black steer, and the other was a red, white, or whatever.... the black one brought a lot more per lb than the other one. So, all things being equal, the black hide is the most important part of the animal's value. CAB, baby! :) The only value of the other breeds....or used to be.. was to bring hybrid vigor to the black calves. You could breed your reg BA bulls to BA cows, and always get black calves .Breeding that homozygous BB Black Angus bull to Simmental, Limousine, Gelbiev, etc, would yield a black calve that would grow bigger, faster, than purebred angus would. Now days, instead of breeding for traits in these cattle that would compliment, enchance and improve the Angus cross calves...and to breed for traits that would make say, a Simmental a better choice than a Limousine, or a Limousine a better choice than a Gelbiev, etc, these breeders have just turned their breeds into Angus cross breds, reducing the genetic diversity that maximized hybrid vigor. All of these breeds could have taken full advantage of the CAB program, without trying to turn their cattle black.
 
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Nesikep

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Well, the value of anything, is the dollar amount someone is willing to part with to aquire it. 2 carcasses hanging in a plant, with all thongs being equal....weight , marbling etc. .. and one was a black steer, and the other was a red, white, or whatever.... the black one brought a lot more per lb than the other one. So, all things being equal, the black hide is the most important part of the animal's value. CAB, baby! :) The only value of the other breeds....or used to be.. was to bring hybrid vigor to the black calves. You could breed your reg BA bulls to BA cows, and always get black calves .Breeding that homozygous BB Black Angus bull to Simmental, Limousine, Gelbiev, etc, would yield a black calve that would grow bigger, faster. Now days, instead of breeding for traits in these cattle that would compliment, enchance and improve the Angus cross calves...and to breed for traits that would make say, a Simmental a better choice than a Limousine, or a Limousine a better choice than a Gelbiev, etc, these breeders have just turned their breeds into Angus cross breds, reducing the genetic diversity that maximized hybrid vigor. All of these breeds could have taken full advantage of the CAB program, without trying to turn their cattle black.
I know that in my market, Herf calves don't bring squat, and Line1's would all be considered dinks.. you need good looking animals to get money here, and hide color is only a minor part of that thankfully. A good stout, meaty set of calves, Chars, Gelbvieh, Simm all do well.
 

Warren Allison

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I know that in my market, Herf calves don't bring squat, and Line1's would all be considered dinks.. you need good looking animals to get money here, and hide color is only a minor part of that thankfully. A good stout, meaty set of calves, Chars, Gelbvieh, Simm all do well.
Same down here as far as Herefords go. Black baldies however, Hereford x Angus, do very well. I had just pointed out to the OP.... Hoser, I think.... that on the heteratosis chart in that Univ of Iowa video, that of the bos taurus breeds, Hereford, especially Line1's, and Angus are the furtherest apart.. share the least amount of DNA, and thus the heteratosis is maximized. If I were going to try a Line1 Hereford and Angus cross, I'd use the Hereford bulls on the Angus cows. I don' t think I would want to fool with Line1 Hereford cows, either. And actually, I;d rather use a polled hereford bull.
 

Ky hills

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I've said it before and will always believe that the black hided craze is nothing but an advertising sham that's unfortunately caught on and caused more harm than good across the board. If people like Angus that's great, so do I, but also there needs to be a realization that they have traditionally had strong points and weak ones. They are not all superior, nor are they truly consistent curve benders as they have been marketed. Other breeds have traditionally had good traits and bad as well and have complimented in crossbreeding systems. The quest to make any breed a curve bending do it all breed, has seen breeds let in outside of the breed genetics in either openly or secretly. That has created more inconsistency within breeds and brought about diluting the good traits that a breed is known for and adding to the weak ones. I think some breeds have benefitted from an emphasis on black hides and others have maybe benefitted on the surface but in reality lost or weakened some good points along the way.
I came to an epiphany a while back, that most purebreds of any breed aren't truly what they seem anymore, To me the true value of a bovine depends on which part of the supply chain you are mainly working from. Terminal type cattle regardless of breed are not usually the best choice for females in a cow/calf operation, where as they will thrive in stocker and feeder operations. Maternally geared cattle, are good in cow/calf operations but not always the best farther along the supply line. I feel like a lot of the CAB stuff has lessened the heterosis between breeds and ended a lot of good herds of other breeds that could have been beneficial. I also believe that the trend of pushing carcass traits has also hurt the long standing maternal traits within the Angus breed itself.
In our herd we are focusing more on a certain type rather than exclusively a breed for our cowherd. We are using several of our own bulls some are crosses that have the traits we are looking for in cows. Those cows are going to be either high percentage Angus or Hereford, and we can then breed them to more of the same or to a third breed for more of a market calf. I did place a degree of importance on hide color when selecting bulls last year as the black calves do sell for a bit more. This year though I may retain a straight bred Hereford bull calf.
 

Caustic Burno

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I know that in my market, Herf calves don't bring squat, and Line1's would all be considered dinks.. you need good looking animals to get money here, and hide color is only a minor part of that thankfully. A good stout, meaty set of calves, Chars, Gelbvieh, Simm all do well.
See if your using American lines your benefiting from some Brimmer in the woodpile.

“In the late 1940s and early 1950s the breeders established the American Charbray Breeders Association and the American Charolais Breeders Association, both of which limited pedigrees to a blend of Charolais and Brahman breeding. Producers who were utilizing other beef breed cows to produce Charolais by compounding Charolais blood through successive generations, formed the International Charolais Association. In 1957, the American and International Associations merged into today’s American-International Charolais Association (AICA). In 1964, the Pan-American Charolais Association, whose registrations were based on performance rather than genetic content, merged into the AICA. And three years later, the American Charbray Breeders Association merged with the AICA, bringing all Charolais-based breeds in the United States under the fold of a single breed registry.”
 

Nesikep

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See if your using American lines your benefiting from some Brimmer in the woodpile.

“In the late 1940s and early 1950s the breeders established the American Charbray Breeders Association and the American Charolais Breeders Association, both of which limited pedigrees to a blend of Charolais and Brahman breeding. Producers who were utilizing other beef breed cows to produce Charolais by compounding Charolais blood through successive generations, formed the International Charolais Association. In 1957, the American and International Associations merged into today’s American-International Charolais Association (AICA). In 1964, the Pan-American Charolais Association, whose registrations were based on performance rather than genetic content, merged into the AICA. And three years later, the American Charbray Breeders Association merged with the AICA, bringing all Charolais-based breeds in the United States under the fold of a single breed registry.”
I don't use Char, and I really don't know what the genetic makeup of the Canadian Chars is like, maybe Dubuque would have a bit better info on that
 

Warren Allison

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I've said it before and will always believe that the black hided craze is nothing but an advertising sham that's unfortunately caught on and caused more harm than good across the board. If people like Angus that's great, so do I, but also there needs to be a realization that they have traditionally had strong points and weak ones. They are not all superior, nor are they truly consistent curve benders as they have been marketed. Other breeds have traditionally had good traits and bad as well and have complimented in crossbreeding systems. The quest to make any breed a curve bending do it all breed, has seen breeds let in outside of the breed genetics in either openly or secretly. That has created more inconsistency within breeds and brought about diluting the good traits that a breed is known for and adding to the weak ones. I think some breeds have benefitted from an emphasis on black hides and others have maybe benefitted on the surface but in reality lost or weakened some good points along the way.
I came to an epiphany a while back, that most purebreds of any breed aren't truly what they seem anymore, To me the true value of a bovine depends on which part of the supply chain you are mainly working from. Terminal type cattle regardless of breed are not usually the best choice for females in a cow/calf operation, where as they will thrive in stocker and feeder operations. Maternally geared cattle, are good in cow/calf operations but not always the best farther along the supply line. I feel like a lot of the CAB stuff has lessened the heterosis between breeds and ended a lot of good herds of other breeds that could have been beneficial. I also believe that the trend of pushing carcass traits has also hurt the long standing maternal traits within the Angus breed itself.
In our herd we are focusing more on a certain type rather than exclusively a breed for our cowherd. We are using several of our own bulls some are crosses that have the traits we are looking for in cows. Those cows are going to be either high percentage Angus or Hereford, and we can then breed them to more of the same or to a third breed for more of a market calf. I did place a degree of importance on hide color when selecting bulls last year as the black calves do sell for a bit more. This year though I may retain a straight bred Hereford bull calf.
Well, the black-hided craze is due to the CAB program, which is a stroke of marketing genius, and has done wonders for Angus growers. No telling how many family farms and ranches it has saved. Literally. The small -time calf-operations make more money, and it even helped the dairy famers get more for their 1st time heifers' calves. I think it is awesome, that a man can sell 100,000 lbs of black steers and make $10k to $20k more money for them than his neighbor with 100,000 lbs of hereford or shorthorn or Charolais steers on the same pasture ,hay, feed etc. And the great thing is, that hereford or shorthorn rancher could simply put a homozygous Black angus bull on those cows, and he'd get that extra $10k-$20k for HIS 100.000 bs of steers as well. Only he'd get them quicker and with fewer head, than the pure Angus rancher would. And that Angus grower? He'd see the neighbor get there quicker with less head, and he could get a hereford, or shorthorn, or whatever bull, and he'd get there quicker with less head too. So, nothing wrong with the CAB or the marketing program by AAA. Only thing anyone can say about that is "Thank you". What the problem is, the OTHER breed associations trying to turn their breed black. They have turned most of the Continental breeds, into just Angus cross breds. diluting the genetic characteristics that used to maximize hybrid vigor. What they SHOULD have done, is bred to improve their breed's traits that make them a good cross on Angus. Market the reasons why a Simmental or Gelbiev or Hereford bull is the beat cross on Angus. Market the Limousine or
Shorthorn as THE best cows to breed your Angus bull too. So, I am actually agreeing with you. KY Hills, in this reply.
 

elkwc

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I know that in my market, Herf calves don't bring squat, and Line1's would all be considered dinks.. you need good looking animals to get money here, and hide color is only a minor part of that thankfully. A good stout, meaty set of calves, Chars, Gelbvieh, Simm all do well.
Not sure what you all dinks. I was never a L1 fan but they have improved them a bunch. There are several herds around here that have framey meaty L1's. Both of our Hereford bulls are out of straight L1 cows. The top side has other bloodlines. Our 5 y/o bull is as meaty as any Simmi or Limmi in the area. If you call a 2,250 lb bull in working shape a dink then I guess he is. Most of the A gus, Simmi's Nd Limmi's have less frame than he does. I'm wondering if you have seen any of the current Herefords. Lenta doesn't represent the Hereford. If you want too look at line bred pure Herefords look at the Deewall herd. We tried a polled bull but too many issues with them. He lasted one year.
 

Muddy

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Black hide sells good 🤷‍♂️ thanks to the AAA marketing. I've never heard of straight Hereford steers or straight Charolais steers topping the sales around here. It sucks because I am very fond of the Hereford breed. Both breeds are on decline localized due to the recent years of heavy dockage.
 
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