Cow Size

[KNERSIE]

Their is more to it than just weight and frame. We don't put any feed through our cows, they only eat grass, summer and winter, and I wouldn't call them small. Sure if you have a 6 frame cow without any body, then you are in trouble. But if the weight is on them in the right spot, and they raise the kind of calves that are marketable, then you have something that is in demand. We have standing orders for replacement heifers coming out of our commercial customers cow herds, and feedlots wanting their steer mates. If you can please both sides of the industry, I think you are doing things somewhat right.

Tell me what you think of this cow. I know she weighs more than 1200 lbs, but to me, she is pretty ideal. Moderate framed (5.5 frame), very easy keeping, breeds back on time, perfect udder, and a calf raising machine and has the stay porwe we all need as she is 10 years old now. We are working to get our entire herd to be just like her, even though she isn't a 1200 lbs cow.

Her she is again when she was 8 years old.

I have said all along that type and phenotype plays the bigger role and that cow is as close to perfect grass phenotype as you're likely to find. She'll do as well on my place as on yours.

 

[EAT BEEF]

I think a cows weight should be figured at the time she goes into Winter feeding. I have a dozen or so cows that will weigh in that 1700 pound range before calving. Then settle down to about 1500 pounds going into Winter. It's nice having a big cow at kill time, top price and lots of pounds. I'm working at getting the cows smaller. Not real sure how to do it? I save the best doing heifers as replacements and they just seem to get big. So how do you go about getting 11-12 hundred pound cows these days. I'm sure not going to sell out and start over. :help:

You might pick from the middle of the group of heifers. Nature seems to like an average

 

[dun]

When I've picked heifers out of a choice group at a sale I alwasy go for the smaller ones. Haven;t been disappointed with any of them so far.

 

[MikeC]

When do you determine the weight of a cow? Just before she calves, right after, when she weans her calf? From right after calving till right at weaning our cows will range in weight by 200-400 lbs!

The Char Assoc. wants the cows' weight turned in when the calves are weaned. She will have had a Yearling frame score on file when the "Whole Herd Rewards" program is used.

 

[donnaIL]

This is easly a 1700lb , 8 yr old cow, she is easly a frame 7 maybe a 8, I know she is not perfect but she does the job and she is fat. The hot wire is 3 1/2 t 4 ft high, thats her calf getting up. I personally dont want any more cows that big...she may even be bigger--she looked bigger than the 2000lb bull that we sold...

 

[Oldtimer]

I have a neighbor that runs about 10,000+ head--4-5000 pairs (calve in May-June on grass) and the rest as yearlings- both home raised and bought ....Today as I was riding thru my cows moving them to summer grass- and trying to cut out their yearlings that had gotten in with mine-along with putting in a dozen of theirs that had gotten out on the highway-- I noticed how many of their yearling steers were quite a bit smaller/lighter than my yearling heifers-- but remembered that they had told me several times how these lighter cattle were the ones that put on the most weight when turned on grass during the summer and made them the most money....
I know some of those yearlings didn't weigh 500 lbs.....

 

[Wisteria Farms]

i wanna see a good pic of a 1700 lb cow. aybe a 1200 lber also so as to compare...1700 lb cow must be huge!!!

Diesel... I have a 1900 lb cow...

This is 1/2 of her.. sorry. She's HUGE... thank GOD she's gentle!!!

 

[RVF]

Deisel, I had a Hereford cow who was 2000 lbs at weaning and she looked alot like BRG's cow, but bigger. If you want to see 1800 lb cattle just come to East Central Saskatchewan and watch some bred cow sales and cull cow sales. It is not uncommon to see 1800 lb tan cattle. Anything under 1000 lbs is severly discounted. Personally a 1200 - 1400 lb cow is what I want.

 

[TEhayandcattle]

i wanna see a good pic of a 1700 lb cow. aybe a 1200 lber also so as to compare...1700 lb cow must be huge!!!

Here's a 3 yr. old Beefmaster on her 2nd calf she's 1735lbs here the paint over her shoulder is 1850 , when I took over 5 years ago we averaged just over 1850 on the herd we started putting the bulls on sooner trying to stunt growth and end up with a 13-1500lb cow with the same genetics and calf raising potential as the big girls.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Oldtimer it's not what they weigh going out that matters it's the weight coming off and what it all costs to put on. We've had bulls gain four plus pounds a day on grass-it can cheapen things up pretty quickly. We take our cow weights when we ship our drys off grass in midsummer. They usually weight between 1150 and 1225-their steers out of the feedlot are usually right around 1350. Were clearing a pen out on May 11-barley is hitting five bucks next week so pretty glad to see them gone.

 

[novatech]

All things being equal frame size is an important consideration. The problem is all things are not equal. Choosing cattle solely based on frame size is as much a single trait selection as anything else.

Why do we have so much frame creep? I think it is caused by many people that raise there own replacement heifers being produced by terminal bulls.

 

[Brandonm22]

All things being equal frame size is an important consideration. The problem is all things are not equal. Choosing cattle solely based on frame size is as much a single trait selection as anything else.

Why do we have so much frame creep? I think it is caused by many people that raise there own replacement heifers being produced by terminal bulls.

That wouldn't explain the frame creep on the purebred end though. I BELIEVE in the value of EPDs to tell me more about the cattle; but a lot of people are simply ranking bulls by their growth EPDs and THAT has a lot to do with the fact that frame is creeping up. In the last round of the MARC the Angus cows were bigger than the Gelbvieh and Simmental cows. Between the obsession with EPDs and just farmers keeping back their heaviest weaning weight heifers frame creep is probably inevitable in a commercial herd unless action is taken too avoid falling into this trap.

 

[Oldtimer]

All things being equal frame size is an important consideration. The problem is all things are not equal. Choosing cattle solely based on frame size is as much a single trait selection as anything else.

Why do we have so much frame creep? I think it is caused by many people that raise there own replacement heifers being produced by terminal bulls.

That wouldn't explain the frame creep on the purebred end though. I BELIEVE in the value of EPDs to tell me more about the cattle; but a lot of people are simply ranking bulls by their growth EPDs and THAT has a lot to do with the fact that frame is creeping up. In the last round of the MARC the Angus cows were bigger than the Gelbvieh and Simmental cows. Between the obsession with EPDs and just farmers keeping back their heaviest weaning weight heifers frame creep is probably inevitable in a commercial herd unless action is taken too avoid falling into this trap.

With the angus anyway- I think much of the problem came when many breeders forgot about the maternal qualities that made the breed famous- and concentrated way too much on trying to increase frame size, weight, and carcass to match the Continentals....And in doing so lost many of those maternal qualities...Everyone started chasing EPD's with most folks looking for the highest numbers (higher must be better :???: )- and the frame creep on the angus just came about- along with losing some of their easy keeping abilities and fertility/stayability...The size of the average angus yearling heifer increased 6 inchs in the 10 years between 1977 to 1987- and mature size went up accordingly...

I think its ironic as you pointed out- on the other hand some of the continental breeds have been working to "angustize" their cattle--working on making them black, downsizing frame size, and working to get smaller birthweights and more calving ease.. :shock:

 

[novatech]

All things being equal frame size is an important consideration. The problem is all things are not equal. Choosing cattle solely based on frame size is as much a single trait selection as anything else.

Why do we have so much frame creep? I think it is caused by many people that raise there own replacement heifers being produced by terminal bulls.

That wouldn't explain the frame creep on the purebred end though. I BELIEVE in the value of EPDs to tell me more about the cattle; but a lot of people are simply ranking bulls by their growth EPDs and THAT has a lot to do with the fact that frame is creeping up. In the last round of the MARC the Angus cows were bigger than the Gelbvieh and Simmental cows. Between the obsession with EPDs and just farmers keeping back their heaviest weaning weight heifers frame creep is probably inevitable in a commercial herd unless action is taken too avoid falling into this trap.

Those high numbers, in my openion, are terminal bulls. Many people thing that in order to have fast gainers in the feedlot you must start with big cows.

 

[rocket2222]

Had one a few years back that weighed 2103 lbs when I took her to the sale barn as a 5 year old because she wouldn't breed back. I had to stand on the boards in the alleyway to reach her to AI. She was I think about a 9 frame. This had nothing to do with frame creep. Her sire was one of the old big framed show bulls

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

I used to have a full sister to Hustler 920 (Santa Bull) that was 2300 lbs back in the 90s

 

[Oldtimer]

I had an interesting conversation with a fellow yesterday that had ended up with the same problem of frame creep I did- and he brought up something I had not thought about--he said that some of his came about when he got sold by the vet into the idea of pelvic measuring his heifers, and then kept those with the bigger pelvic measurements for his replacements....Which were usually the bigger sized/framed heifers- and over the years of doing this the size of his cows gradually got bigger....And he didn't sound like he felt the measuring was worth the effort....

About 10 years ago he switched over to using mostly Diamond D/Ohlde bloodlines of lowbirthweight bulls and says he has less calving problems now than when he was screwing around with the pelvic measuring- and is bringing his cow size back to where it was....

 

[dun]

I had an interesting conversation with a fellow yesterday that had ended up with the same problem of frame creep I did- and he brought up something I had not thought about--he said that some of his came about when he got sold by the vet into the idea of pelvic measuring his heifers, and then kept those with the bigger pelvic measurements for his replacements....Which were usually the bigger sized/framed heifers- and over the years of doing this the size of his cows gradually got bigger....And he didn't sound like he felt the measuring was worth the effort....

About 10 years ago he switched over to using mostly Diamond D/Ohlde bloodlines of lowbirthweight bulls and says he has less calving problems now than when he was screwing around with the pelvic measuring- and is bringing his cow size back to where it was....

Another case where single trait selection bites someones butt. We use pelvic size (generally) as a selection criteria. Some of our smallest in stature heifers have the largest pelvic measurements. We havea size window that seems to work for us, 155-181 as yearlings. Bigger or smaller and they get on the truck and I won;t buy a heifer that has been measured that is outside of that window.

 

[KNERSIE]

I had an interesting conversation with a fellow yesterday that had ended up with the same problem of frame creep I did- and he brought up something I had not thought about--he said that some of his came about when he got sold by the vet into the idea of pelvic measuring his heifers, and then kept those with the bigger pelvic measurements for his replacements....Which were usually the bigger sized/framed heifers- and over the years of doing this the size of his cows gradually got bigger....And he didn't sound like he felt the measuring was worth the effort....

About 10 years ago he switched over to using mostly Diamond D/Ohlde bloodlines of lowbirthweight bulls and says he has less calving problems now than when he was screwing around with the pelvic measuring- and is bringing his cow size back to where it was....

Another case where single trait selection bites someones butt. We use pelvic size (generally) as a selection criteria. Some of our smallest in stature heifers have the largest pelvic measurements. We havea size window that seems to work for us, 155-181 as yearlings. Bigger or smaller and they get on the truck and I won;t buy a heifer that has been measured that is outside of that window.

What harm would there be in keeping a moderate heifer with a bigger pelvic opening than your window?

Or is it just to avoid extremes?

 

[dun]

We use pelvic size (generally) as a selection criteria. Some of our smallest in stature heifers have the largest pelvic measurements. We havea size window that seems to work for us, 155-181 as yearlings. Bigger or smaller and they get on the truck and I won;t buy a heifer that has been measured that is outside of that window.

What harm would there be in keeping a moderate heifer with a bigger pelvic opening than your window?

Or is it just to avoid extremes?[/quote]

Too often those extreme pelvic sized turn into extreme cow sizes. Our vet is fairly experienced with all of the repro kind of stuff, wroked at MARC in the repro part and KSU, he's the one that recommended those sizes and it's stood us in good stead. Now if there was a really stubby little heifer with a 183 I might be tempted, just never seen one.