rocket2222
Well-known member
Doc, Its good to see you back 
Cow Size
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rocket2222":2m014zd7 said:Doc, Its good to see you back
I agree, someone has to teach us what makes sense and what does not.
In every discussion on this matter so far, people bring up arguments that does not have anything to do with cow size, but still can be very true. Cows are supposed to be fertile, easy fleshing, milk well and so on, but this is true regardless of size! If the issue at hand is indeed cow size, that is what we will discuss.
Big cows are really valuable solely because they can be sold for meat at any time, but they really just bind your money at a low interest rate. A small cow is worth far less for meat, but will be more productive while you have her in stead. And another thing, if you get heifer calves that is not needed as cows, you may very well raise them and get the first calf at two years and sell the heifer for meat a little after weaning time. This calf comes really cheap for you, as most of the fodder the heifer consumed during the winter were not a cost, but a way to raise meat.
Example of cow size and extra calves; and some really wise cross breeding:
First farm keeps eighteen charolais cows, four of wich are first calf heifers bred to limo bull, and the other cows are bred to char bull. Weaning weights: 300 for heifers and 330 for cows. A new heifer will cost exactly the same as the slaughter price of an old cow, due to the great weight of the old cow. The rest of the heifers are raised until grown weight and sold without calving at all. The cows weigh 800 kgs each, 18x 800 = 14400kgs live weight of mother cows to feed all winter.
Second farm raises a f1 cross of shorthorn and galloway,called bluegrey. They keep ten cows, and, keeps the heifers until the first calf and then sells them. This means roughly five cross heifers, who in turn gives say two more heifers,who in turn gives one heifer. All cows are bred to blonde dacuitane bulls, and all heifer are bred to limo bulls. Weaning weigth for these crossbreds are also 330 and 300kgs, due to better milking ability and hybrid vigour. But because of moderate frame these cows weigh 500kgs, multiplied by ten gives 5000 kgs live weight of mother cows to feed all winter. This bluegrey cow produces for ten years, so cost of replacement is marginal.
Both farms sell 9 bull calves, one sell 7 chars and 2 char x limo,
the other one sell 5 blonde x bluegrey, 3 limo x blonde x bluegrey, and one limo x limo xblonde.
First farm sells nine chars; 7 fullgrown heifers and 2 older cows.
Second farm sells 5 blonde x heifers, and 3 limo x heifers and one old bluegrey cow ad he also buys one bluegrey heifer.
Roughly, both farms produce the same; one of them by feeding 14400kgs of cows at winter,
and the other by feeding 5000 kgs of cows. Do the maths yourselves!
Brandonm22
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I hope those weaning weights are in Kilograms and not pounds......or I would sell that whole herd. Good mini-herfs should be able to wean 330 pound calves.
I am not sure WHAT hay is bringing in Sweden; but here with the fuel and fertilizer increase (once everybody adjusts to the new numbers) good hay cheaper than $45 a roll is going to be very scarce. With $45 a roll hay, ~$8-9 a bag or bushel grower ration I can't see how developing a set of heifers to sell off their first calves and them by the pound pays.
I am not sure WHAT hay is bringing in Sweden; but here with the fuel and fertilizer increase (once everybody adjusts to the new numbers) good hay cheaper than $45 a roll is going to be very scarce. With $45 a roll hay, ~$8-9 a bag or bushel grower ration I can't see how developing a set of heifers to sell off their first calves and them by the pound pays.
It is either this farm or some other farm that feed the heifers out; basically they are ready at 24 months or so but grass is cheap in summertime while they nurse the calf, and then sell her at 30 months in stead.
TexasBred
Well-known member
Anazazi, your computations "assume" too many if's, but's and what if's. lolol. Think I'll sell out and get me a herd of them miniature jersey cows. Ought to be a real "bull" market for those since everybody will want those efficient little rascals.
The numbers are in fact taken from the real world; the bluegrey example from reliable united kingdom source, and the charolais example is from my next door neighbor who keeps purebred but nonreg chars and takes pride in that they are the biggest cows around here, and brags about birthweights of 50kgs plus. But these examples were truly polarized and the difference between big and small are most of the time a little less noticeble.
As for jerseys as mommas, it is really possible if they are bred to say belgian blues to add conformation.
This cross gives heavy weaning weight because of all the milk, and the calf looks very well, but daily gain after weaning is "underwhelming" as both sire and dam are so small framed. I know of a man who feeds out his own bulls from this cross; he gets good grade on them but they take some two months extra to feed out to full weight.
Another option is blonde dacuitaine, wich gives less conformation and more growth, but here is the problem that the cow should be able to carry the weight of the bull withot breaking down. And I have not seen this one, so it is just a thought.
As for jerseys as mommas, it is really possible if they are bred to say belgian blues to add conformation.
This cross gives heavy weaning weight because of all the milk, and the calf looks very well, but daily gain after weaning is "underwhelming" as both sire and dam are so small framed. I know of a man who feeds out his own bulls from this cross; he gets good grade on them but they take some two months extra to feed out to full weight.
Another option is blonde dacuitaine, wich gives less conformation and more growth, but here is the problem that the cow should be able to carry the weight of the bull withot breaking down. And I have not seen this one, so it is just a thought.
cross_7
Well-known member
BeefTalk: Cow Size – To Win the Race, You Must Know What Race You Are In
Images
Estimated Total Calf Production on 640 Acres
A utopian system that goes from conception all the way to the consumer has yet to be developed.
By Kris Ringwall, Beef Specialist
NDSU Extension Service
When selecting cows for size, the debate can rage on for a long time. In reality, personal perception defines large and small and many questions don't have answers.
However, research data shows that cattle must fit the environment in which they are asked to produce. Small cattle are not bad and large cattle are not bad. Likewise, small cattle may not be good and large cattle may not be good.
Good could best be defined as what fits the production model. Fortunately, there is a tremendous overlap in biological types and various attributes of different cattle tend to fit several environments.
Occasionally, producers can try to stuff a certain type of cattle into a production environment. In reality, that is their choice. As long as they can muster up the energy and dollars to get the cattle to fit, so be it.
The other qualifier is market acceptability. There are several markets, so the cattle that ultimately are marketed need to fit an available market.
It would be nice if the product on the rail would match the product needed in the box. However, just like production, that is not always how it is. An entire industry has evolved in getting the product to fit the box. Just like the production side, what goes in the box is a function of the markets and the economic rewards that produce an incentive for someone to get the product in the box.
The ease of any of the previously mentioned processes never can be assumed. The best that generally evolves is some localized streamlining. A utopian system that goes from conception all the way to the consumer has yet to be developed.
Although the concerns of the industry and larger facets of the world are ever present, seldom at the end of the day can a producer really measure success on a worldwide basis. Localized environments force producers to function somewhat independently to meet the demands of their local production systems.
History has shown the beef business requires many people. The competitive nature of the beef infrastructure often detracts from what is essential and what is a luxury. The beef business is home to many great people trying to enjoy life, raise a family and stash something away for those golden years.
So here we are back to the fundamental question. What type of cattle really fits the operation and when do the inputs and outputs balance in favor of the producer and the cow? Trying to gather all the knowledge regarding such a massive question soon will become burdensome, which may be why the question lingers.
There are few insights from the industry, but each individual must assess herd data to make the decision. If a group of cows averaged 1,571 pounds and stocked at 2.85 acres per month, a producer would turn out 50 cows on 640 acres for 4 1/2 months. Likewise, if the cows averaged 1,216 pounds, appropriately stocked at 2.35 acres per month, a producer would turn out 60 cows on the same 640 acres.
If each group weaned 40 percent of their body weight, the group of heavy cows would wean 31,420 pounds of calf and the set of lighter cows would wean 29,184 pounds of calf. However, just like in a race, when the announcer says start your engines, the skill of the driver and the performance under the hood will determine the race.
Likewise, it is apparent that when the cows are lined up at the starting gate and the announcer says start your cows, the management skills of the producer and the performance under the hide will determine who finishes the race.
The important point is to know what race you are in.
May you find all your ear tags.
Your comments are always welcome at http://www.BeefTalk.com.
For more information, contact the NDBCIA Office, 1041 State Ave., Dickinson, ND 58601, or go to http://www.CHAPS2000.com on the Internet.
just noticed looks like the numbers are skewed :???:
Images
Estimated Total Calf Production on 640 Acres
A utopian system that goes from conception all the way to the consumer has yet to be developed.
By Kris Ringwall, Beef Specialist
NDSU Extension Service
When selecting cows for size, the debate can rage on for a long time. In reality, personal perception defines large and small and many questions don't have answers.
However, research data shows that cattle must fit the environment in which they are asked to produce. Small cattle are not bad and large cattle are not bad. Likewise, small cattle may not be good and large cattle may not be good.
Good could best be defined as what fits the production model. Fortunately, there is a tremendous overlap in biological types and various attributes of different cattle tend to fit several environments.
Occasionally, producers can try to stuff a certain type of cattle into a production environment. In reality, that is their choice. As long as they can muster up the energy and dollars to get the cattle to fit, so be it.
The other qualifier is market acceptability. There are several markets, so the cattle that ultimately are marketed need to fit an available market.
It would be nice if the product on the rail would match the product needed in the box. However, just like production, that is not always how it is. An entire industry has evolved in getting the product to fit the box. Just like the production side, what goes in the box is a function of the markets and the economic rewards that produce an incentive for someone to get the product in the box.
The ease of any of the previously mentioned processes never can be assumed. The best that generally evolves is some localized streamlining. A utopian system that goes from conception all the way to the consumer has yet to be developed.
Although the concerns of the industry and larger facets of the world are ever present, seldom at the end of the day can a producer really measure success on a worldwide basis. Localized environments force producers to function somewhat independently to meet the demands of their local production systems.
History has shown the beef business requires many people. The competitive nature of the beef infrastructure often detracts from what is essential and what is a luxury. The beef business is home to many great people trying to enjoy life, raise a family and stash something away for those golden years.
So here we are back to the fundamental question. What type of cattle really fits the operation and when do the inputs and outputs balance in favor of the producer and the cow? Trying to gather all the knowledge regarding such a massive question soon will become burdensome, which may be why the question lingers.
There are few insights from the industry, but each individual must assess herd data to make the decision. If a group of cows averaged 1,571 pounds and stocked at 2.85 acres per month, a producer would turn out 50 cows on 640 acres for 4 1/2 months. Likewise, if the cows averaged 1,216 pounds, appropriately stocked at 2.35 acres per month, a producer would turn out 60 cows on the same 640 acres.
If each group weaned 40 percent of their body weight, the group of heavy cows would wean 31,420 pounds of calf and the set of lighter cows would wean 29,184 pounds of calf. However, just like in a race, when the announcer says start your engines, the skill of the driver and the performance under the hood will determine the race.
Likewise, it is apparent that when the cows are lined up at the starting gate and the announcer says start your cows, the management skills of the producer and the performance under the hide will determine who finishes the race.
The important point is to know what race you are in.
May you find all your ear tags.
Your comments are always welcome at http://www.BeefTalk.com.
For more information, contact the NDBCIA Office, 1041 State Ave., Dickinson, ND 58601, or go to http://www.CHAPS2000.com on the Internet.
just noticed looks like the numbers are skewed :???:
Oldtimer
Well-known member
BeefTalk: With Cow Size, One Can't Forget Production Potential
The Dickinson Research Extension Center recently established two sets of cattle based on body weight. Since the year was dry, the cow size question came up quickly.
What size cow is right? How does one measure inputs versus production?
These two herds (groups) of cattle were weighed in the late fall or early winter. The difference in weight was 355 pounds.
The first herd of 52 cows averaged 1,216 pounds (856 to 1,395 pounds). The second herd of 50 cows averaged 1,571 pounds (1,350 to 1,935 pounds).
Earlier discussion detailed the difference in dry-matter intake for these two groups of cows. Projections were shown if the groups were placed in confinement on June 1 when the calves were approximately 3 months old and fed during the summer until the end of September.
The 1,216-pound group of cattle, with milk production estimated at 20 pounds peak, would have an average daily need of just less than 28 pounds of dry matter of a ration that was 60 percent total digestible nutrients and 9.8 percent crude protein. The 1,571- pound group of cattle, with milk production estimated at 20 pounds peak, would have an average daily need of just less than 34.5 pounds of a daily dry matter of the same ration.
By placing the two groups of cows on pasture, with normal forage production in southwestern North Dakota, the land mass required for a group of 50 cows weighing 1,216 pounds would be 529 acres. A group of 50 cows weighing 1,571 pounds would require 642 acres.
The heavier cows would require approximately 23 more tons of feed in a dry lot for 4.5 months. On pasture, the heavier cows would need approximately 113 more acres.
Does the output of the larger cows justify the extra nutrition? That is not an easy question because cow age and other factors need to be considered when calf production is estimated.
However, some idea of potential production from these two groups of cows can be estimated. For instance, since cows tend to reach peak calf production around 5 years of age, the actual previous calf production of the cows in each group could be utilized to estimate this year's production.
Performance records of body weight at weaning of cows aged 5 to 9 years and their respective calf's weaning weight were pulled and evaluated.
The older cows in the first group (current winter weight 1,216 pounds), averaged 1,272 pounds in the fall and weaned 602-pound calves, or 47 percent of their body weight. The heavier group of cows (current winter weight 1,571 pounds), averaged 1,463 pounds in the fall and weaned 603-pound calves, or 42 percent of their body weight.
This data trend was further examined by finding the percentage of cow weight weaned in all mature cows in the center's herd data system. The data evaluated actual weaning weight of calves and mature cows with calves of both genders.
All the cow records were allotted to 100-pound increments and weaning percentages were calculated. The 12-weight or lighter cows weaned 50 percent of their fall weight (1,242 pounds) with 617-pound calves.
Thirteen-weight cows weaned 45 percent of their fall weight (1,357 pounds) with 611- pound calves. Fourteen-weight cows weaned 41 percent of their fall weight (1,456 pounds) with 589-pound calves.
Fifteen-weight cows weaned 39 percent of their fall weight (1,549 pounds) with 598- pound calves. Those sixteen-weight and above cows weaned 34 percent of their fall weight (1,698 pounds) with 572- pound calves.
More food for thought!
May you find all your ear tags.
Your comments are always welcome at http://www.BeefTalk.com
For more information, contact the NDBCIA Office, 1041 State Ave., Dickinson, ND 58601, or go to http://www.CHAPS2000.com on the Internet.
Source: Kris Ringwall, (701) 483-2348, ext. 103, [email protected]" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, NDSU Agriculture Communication
Latest Stories
The Dickinson Research Extension Center recently established two sets of cattle based on body weight. Since the year was dry, the cow size question came up quickly.
What size cow is right? How does one measure inputs versus production?
These two herds (groups) of cattle were weighed in the late fall or early winter. The difference in weight was 355 pounds.
The first herd of 52 cows averaged 1,216 pounds (856 to 1,395 pounds). The second herd of 50 cows averaged 1,571 pounds (1,350 to 1,935 pounds).
Earlier discussion detailed the difference in dry-matter intake for these two groups of cows. Projections were shown if the groups were placed in confinement on June 1 when the calves were approximately 3 months old and fed during the summer until the end of September.
The 1,216-pound group of cattle, with milk production estimated at 20 pounds peak, would have an average daily need of just less than 28 pounds of dry matter of a ration that was 60 percent total digestible nutrients and 9.8 percent crude protein. The 1,571- pound group of cattle, with milk production estimated at 20 pounds peak, would have an average daily need of just less than 34.5 pounds of a daily dry matter of the same ration.
By placing the two groups of cows on pasture, with normal forage production in southwestern North Dakota, the land mass required for a group of 50 cows weighing 1,216 pounds would be 529 acres. A group of 50 cows weighing 1,571 pounds would require 642 acres.
The heavier cows would require approximately 23 more tons of feed in a dry lot for 4.5 months. On pasture, the heavier cows would need approximately 113 more acres.
Does the output of the larger cows justify the extra nutrition? That is not an easy question because cow age and other factors need to be considered when calf production is estimated.
However, some idea of potential production from these two groups of cows can be estimated. For instance, since cows tend to reach peak calf production around 5 years of age, the actual previous calf production of the cows in each group could be utilized to estimate this year's production.
Performance records of body weight at weaning of cows aged 5 to 9 years and their respective calf's weaning weight were pulled and evaluated.
The older cows in the first group (current winter weight 1,216 pounds), averaged 1,272 pounds in the fall and weaned 602-pound calves, or 47 percent of their body weight. The heavier group of cows (current winter weight 1,571 pounds), averaged 1,463 pounds in the fall and weaned 603-pound calves, or 42 percent of their body weight.
This data trend was further examined by finding the percentage of cow weight weaned in all mature cows in the center's herd data system. The data evaluated actual weaning weight of calves and mature cows with calves of both genders.
All the cow records were allotted to 100-pound increments and weaning percentages were calculated. The 12-weight or lighter cows weaned 50 percent of their fall weight (1,242 pounds) with 617-pound calves.
Thirteen-weight cows weaned 45 percent of their fall weight (1,357 pounds) with 611- pound calves. Fourteen-weight cows weaned 41 percent of their fall weight (1,456 pounds) with 589-pound calves.
Fifteen-weight cows weaned 39 percent of their fall weight (1,549 pounds) with 598- pound calves. Those sixteen-weight and above cows weaned 34 percent of their fall weight (1,698 pounds) with 572- pound calves.
More food for thought!
May you find all your ear tags.
Your comments are always welcome at http://www.BeefTalk.com
For more information, contact the NDBCIA Office, 1041 State Ave., Dickinson, ND 58601, or go to http://www.CHAPS2000.com on the Internet.
Source: Kris Ringwall, (701) 483-2348, ext. 103, [email protected]" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, NDSU Agriculture Communication
Latest Stories
cross_7
Well-known member
smaller cows weaned heavier calves...never would of thought that.
novatech
Well-known member
Wonder if they were the same breed? What was the selection criteria? Was the same bull used on both groups? Was heterosis involved in one or the other?cross_7":3dch9oee said:
Weaning 50% of their body weight is impressive. But I would speculate that a larger cow could also be developed that could also do the same. I would like to see the same test with a Brahman cow bred to a high wean weight Herford bull.
sold a few cows last week. 18 head averaged 1077 lbs. they were in pretty decent condition to be bred. they had come off a pretty hard winter but were on good grass this spring and were pretty much in good shape. weaned calves off of them that were born around march 10th. they weighed about 225-250 lbs. these cows were 9 years old, and would have typically weaned off 580# calves (avg. steers & heifers) at 185 days. {typical for a good year}
ROB
ROB
ROB":4io9dtbu said:
suprised somebody didn't hammer me on the low weights of the calves. estimating their weights - i forgot to add back their avg. birthweight and didn't have the no. of days right. should have been 350-375 lbs. ROB
