Cow Size

[Busterz]

I'd guess 1650.


I'm not trying to offend anyone but from reading some of the messages in this post I think people are missing the point on cow size. The move towards smaller cow size doesn't mean there aren't "good" bigger cows around or that there aren't a few efficient heavier cows around. But smaller cows eat less and when you take that into account over a herd it means you can have more cows with the same amount of pasture/grass/forage which means you can have more calves. More calves will almost always equal more total pounds.

Bigger cows would have to be very efficient to make up this difference.

The issue is about productive use of grass or feed not about whether a big cow is a "good" one or not.

 

[TexasBred]

I'd guess 1650.


I'm not trying to offend anyone but from reading some of the messages in this post I think people are missing the point on cow size. The move towards smaller cow size doesn't mean there aren't "good" bigger cows around or that there aren't a few efficient heavier cows around. But smaller cows eat less and when you take that into account over a herd it means you can have more cows with the same amount of pasture/grass/forage which means you can have more calves. More calves will almost always equal more total pounds.

Bigger cows would have to be very efficient to make up this difference.

The issue is about productive use of grass or feed not about whether a big cow is a "good" one or not.[/quote]

That last sentence destroyed your entire hypothesis...You've only got "x" amount of grass. The efficiency of the cow in utilizing whatever grazing she has, converting a portion to milk to produce a weaning size calf in a short period of time and a portion to holding her own body condition and breeding back while doing all this on limited grazing is the critical factor. EPD's and adaptability rather than size alone or "x" number of larger cattle as apposed to "Y" number of small framed cattle.

 

[rocket2222]

Well this spring she weighed around 1720 lbs. Last year around 1770 lbs. One could argue that she kept her own weight at the expense of her calfs weight, and that could be true, although I forgot when I posted earlier that this years calf was sired by a different bull from last years, so neither way is really a fair comparison. I do think that calling a cow efficient because she weighs 1100 lbs is a little extreme, and in my limited experience with small cows [I have had a few] it typically means lower weaning weights and much slower growth. It takes between 3 to 4 years for a cow to reach her mature weight, that some mighty slow growth for a 1100lb cow. In todays market I'm not sure a 450 lbs weaned steer with genetics bred in for slow growth is whats needed. And I wouldn't call that being efficient.

 

[EAT BEEF]

If you have a smaller framed cow with some milk and you bred her to a terminal bull the calf should be just about right for the sale barn.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Rocket, I applaud the cow's condition, and that was a decent sized calf, especially considering the forage and feed conditions. However, I've got 1,100-1,400# cows that consistently give me calves with weaning weights of 500-700#, including the drought two years ago, when the lightest 205 was 550#. So if we can find those cows that do weigh in the so-called sweet spot range, and still produce calves that wean 500-700#, while holding their condition, isn't that the best of all scenarios?

I mean no disrespect for that stout looking cow at all, and I feel you've got some very good genetics and cattle, don't take this wrong, just stirring the pot a bit.

 

[rocket2222]

If you have a smaller framed cow with some milk and you bred her to a terminal bull the calf should be just about right for the sale barn.

Yep, a high growth terminal bull will help, you will have to keep that terminal bulls birth weight pretty low for those small cows, so you will lose some pounds there. But, your right, that helps.

 

[rocket2222]

Rocket, I applaud the cow's condition, and that was a decent sized calf, especially considering the forage and feed conditions. However, I've got 1,100-1,400# cows that consistently give me calves with weaning weights of 500-700#, including the drought two years ago, when the lightest 205 was 550#. So if we can find those cows that do weigh in the so-called sweet spot range, and still produce calves that wean 500-700#, while holding their condition, isn't that the best of all scenarios?

I mean no disrespect for that stout looking cow at all, and I feel you've got some very good genetics and cattle, don't take this wrong, just stirring the pot a bit.

Thats what I was trying to do [stir it up a little]. I think she had the lowest weaning weight of all the calves I had last fall. But it wouldn't have been any fun to say I had a 1400 lb cow that had a
500+ lb heifer . I figured somebody would have given me some flak about having such big cows, and how they don't fit in todays market. I just can't get anybody stirred up anymore

 

[EAT BEEF]

If you have a smaller framed cow with some milk and you bred her to a terminal bull the calf should be just about right for the sale barn.

Yep, a high growth terminal bull will help, you will have to keep that terminal bulls birth weight pretty low for those small cows, so you will lose some pounds there. But, your right, that helps.

How big a calf do you think a 4 frame cow can have? Mine don't have trouble with 90lbs+ simmy sired calves.Theres big cows that are good and small cows that aren't I just think I can make more profit running smaller cows.I've still got some 7 frame cows that are in the comm. herd their 12-14 years old and they need to go but they have given me a calf every year.

Lots of ways to do things if your makein money or happy or even both ROCK ON!

 

[dun]

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/columns/bee ... s-pasture/

 

[Bluestem]

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/columns/beeftalk/beeftalk-cow-size-2013-dry-lot-versus-pasture/[/quo
te]
Some numbers we can put to use. Thanks dun.

 

[KNERSIE]

Here is my simplified view on this.

Every cattleman strive to have cows that can wean 50% of their own weight. The way I see it the AVERAGE 1200lb cow is much more likely to wean a 600lb calf than the AVERAGE 1800lb cow is to wean a 900lb calf.

Figure this into your efficiency calculations, it might change the outcome somewaht.

 

[rocket2222]

If you have a smaller framed cow with some milk and you bred her to a terminal bull the calf should be just about right for the sale barn.

Yep, a high growth terminal bull will help, you will have to keep that terminal bulls birth weight pretty low for those small cows, so you will lose some pounds there. But, your right, that helps.

How big a calf do you think a 4 frame cow can have? Mine don't have trouble with 90lbs+ simmy sired calves.Theres big cows that are good and small cows that aren't I just think I can make more profit running smaller cows.I've still got some 7 frame cows that are in the comm. herd their 12-14 years old and they need to go but they have given me a calf every year.

Lots of ways to do things if your makein money or happy or even both ROCK ON!

90's, that replacement heifer size, I thought you were talking about a terminal bull with some extra growth

 

[rocket2222]

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/columns/beeftalk/beeftalk-cow-size-2013-dry-lot-versus-pasture/

Must have used some boney hard doing Angus or Chars for the study, it couldn't have been easy keeping, easy fleshing Herefords.

 

[Brandonm22]

Here is my simplified view on this.

Every cattleman strive to have cows that can wean 50% of their own weight. The way I see it the AVERAGE 1200lb cow is much more likely to wean a 600lb calf than the AVERAGE 1800lb cow is to wean a 900lb calf.

Figure this into your efficiency calculations, it might change the outcome somewaht.

EVEN IF an 1800 lb commercial cow weaned off 900 lb commercial steer calves, I wouldn't have a market for them here in Alabama. Since few calves are like that in the sale barn in a given week no order buyers are there trying too fill such an order. All you could do with them (other than get ROBBED at cull cow prices) is send them to a feedlot ~900 miles away...........and to do that you really need a set of 50 of them.

 

[milkmaid]

Here is my simplified view on this.

Every cattleman strive to have cows that can wean 50% of their own weight. The way I see it the AVERAGE 1200lb cow is much more likely to wean a 600lb calf than the AVERAGE 1800lb cow is to wean a 900lb calf.

Figure this into your efficiency calculations, it might change the outcome somewaht.

Consider though, that per g of body weight, a larger animal uses less energy for maintanance than a smaller animal, so that larger animal really doesn't need to wean a calf at 50% of her body weight in order to be efficient.

Aero did some calculations awhile back on how much a cow needed to wean to be efficient... copied and pasted:

As long as they wean at least 50% of their body weight, I don't care how big they are.

to continue my metabolic weight sermon, my theory (which i think is the next logical step after % of dam weight) is to use a Metabolic Weight Ratio.

Metabolic Weight Ratio = calf weight / dam's metabolic weight

if you look at % weaned and expect 50+% from each cow, you are giving the big cows an unfair shake.

with this rule:
1000 lb cow must bring in a 500 lb calf.
1500 lb cow must bring in a 750 lb calf

the problem is that the big cow has to raise a calf that weighs 50% more and she didnt consume 50% more resources.

1000 lb met wt = 178 lb
1500 lb met wt = 241 lb

the big cow only consumed 35% more resources, but her calf has to weigh 50% more.

if you look at metabolic ratio as a measure of weaning merit, the 1500 lb cow's calf only has to weigh 675 lb to raise the same amount of calf/resources consumed. this would mean that their Met Wt Ratio is the same (2.8 lb of calf / lb of met wt).

say you decide that your cows should wean with a 2.8 MWR:

cow weight | Met Wt | calf weight
1000 | 178 | 498
1100 | 191 | 535
1200 | 204 | 571
1300 | 217 | 608
1400 | 229 | 641
1500 | 241 | 675
1600 | 253 | 708
1700 | 265 | 742
1800 | 276 | 773
the weights above show the same "efficiency" regardless of the cow weight.

notice that the 1000 lb cow raises 50% of her weight and the 1800 lb cow only has to raise 43% of her weight to be as efficient.

 

[KNERSIE]

MM, the problem with this model is that not everything can be explained by a biological mass model. There are other factors that also play a role especially when the ideal forage requirements aren't met. The shorter cow that tends to get fat more readily than the big "equally efficient" cow will in a pinch get by on much lower quality and quantity without losing as much condition and from my experience under very harsh conditions still breed back and also bounce back much quicker than the bigger cow when conditions improve.

There is a huge difference between drylotted cattle that are pushed for maximum production and extensive beef farming in a minimal input system.

 

[Brandonm22]

Exactly, as the cow size increases it gets more and more difficult for her to find enough energy and protein in her gut fill to meet her needs, feed a bigger calf, AND breed back.......even assuming that there is not a limit on groceries. Even using Aero's numbers, a 55% increase per cow in metabalizable energy translates into a whole lot more winter supplementation and at $6.5 a bushel corn, $300++ a ton cottonseed, and $45 a roll hay (the #s in this weeks AL Lvstk mrkt News) the $$$$ you get per calf has to really increase to pay for it.

 

[rocket2222]

Exactly, as the cow size increases it gets more and more difficult for her to find enough energy and protein in her gut fill to meet her needs, feed a bigger calf, AND breed back.......even assuming that there is not a limit on groceries. Even using Aero's numbers, a 55% increase per cow in metabalizable energy translates into a whole lot more winter supplementation and at $6.5 a bushel corn, $300++ a ton cottonseed, and $45 a roll hay (the #s in this weeks AL Lvstk mrkt News) the $$$$ you get per calf has to really increase to pay for it.

I thought ya'll were saying smaller better. If you are having to supplement a 1100 lb cow besides hay with corn and/or cottonseed to make through a winter, that about as inefficient as it gets. :roll:

 

[Brandonm22]

Exactly, as the cow size increases it gets more and more difficult for her to find enough energy and protein in her gut fill to meet her needs, feed a bigger calf, AND breed back.......even assuming that there is not a limit on groceries. Even using Aero's numbers, a 55% increase per cow in metabalizable energy translates into a whole lot more winter supplementation and at $6.5 a bushel corn, $300++ a ton cottonseed, and $45 a roll hay (the #s in this weeks AL Lvstk mrkt News) the $$$$ you get per calf has to really increase to pay for it.

I thought ya'll were saying smaller better. If you are having to supplement a 1100 lb cow besides hay with corn and/or cottonseed to make through a winter, that about as inefficient as it gets. :roll:

You know darn well that different operations NEED to supplement at different levels based on stocking rate and available forage. I won't tell somebody NOT to supplement their cows.....without seeing the cows and the forage at hand. IF you are using grains to supplement moderate framed cows.......you will be buying more of it to supplement bigger cows.

 

[TexasBred]

You can argue your opinion on cow sizes til he11 freezes over and never get an exact answer. There are too many factors involved. Some studies have been done attemting to cover many but none of the finding could be considered "gospel". When you get right down to it, bottom line is "what kind of cow do you want" and "what do kind of calf do you want". What works for your system. Next guys thoughts about it might be totally different. Everbody has their preferences...period....doubt anything is going to change their thinking.