Angus bull thoughts.

[Silver]

Silver in your original post you had something about not being an Angus fan.

I'm not, but I like good cattle when I see them regardless of the breed. And I do run a bit of Angus (red) in some of my bulls because I can see some value in a little Angus in my mother cows. I even have a purebred RA bull.

 

[gizmom]

I sampled the Dunlouise bulls a number of years ago. Had a few females but they fell out of the herd, the bulls were not easy to market in our area just not enough of them. I loved the look, not the performance. One of those lessons on staying the course, when I don't it goes south in a hurry.

gizmom

 

[76 Bar]

Had a few females but they fell out of the herd

Why?

I loved the look, not the performance

Where did they fall short?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Had a few females but they fell out of the herd

Why?

I loved the look, not the performance

Where did they fall short?

From Scotland to Florida?? always liked Cortachy boy..... To me ""looks wise""the perfect bull ..and his dam, is a role model for mammy cows
https://www.google.com/search?q=cortachy+boy+angus+bull&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=ismvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_ufOMnungAhWBnOAKHTlmCv4Q_AUoAXoECAwQAQ&biw=768&bih=960#imgrc=2-B4oI-I7tXDHM

 

[CattleMan1920]

I sampled the Dunlouise bulls a number of years ago. Had a few females but they fell out of the herd, the bulls were not easy to market in our area just not enough of them. I loved the look, not the performance. One of those lessons on staying the course, when I don't it goes south in a hurry.

gizmom

If I were going to use one of those bulls, I would get the daughters from him and then cross back to a bull like Southern Charm. Or maybe SydGen Enhance.

I think you would see hybrid vigor without leaving the Angus breed.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

No doubt about that...In American angus, it would be like introducing another breed.. :cowboy:

 

[cow pollinater]

I think you would see hybrid vigor without leaving the Angus breed.

Very, very, little. Not enough to make any sort of difference.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I think you would see hybrid vigor without leaving the Angus breed.

Very, very, little. Not enough to make any sort of difference.

I've bred SAV genetics to completely opposite genetics and the result was very positive. There is a lot of Wye and Shoshone in our herd a few generations back, when those descendants are crossed with a bull like SAV International, it works.

I routinely cross terminal high $B type sires with high DMI $EN low input maternal females and the results have not let me down.

I'm not saying this will work for you, but it sure does for me.

 

[cow pollinater]

I think you would see hybrid vigor without leaving the Angus breed.

Very, very, little. Not enough to make any sort of difference.

I've bred SAV genetics to completely opposite genetics and the result was very positive. There is a lot of Wye and Shoshone in our herd a few generations back, when those descendants are crossed with a bull like SAV International, it works.

I routinely cross terminal high $B type sires with high DMI $EN low input maternal females and the results have not let me down.

I'm not saying this will work for you, but it sure does for me.

It won't work for me because I know better than to try it. Fire and ice matings very seldom produce consistent results. Don't confuse good results with heterosis. They're not the same thing.

 

[gpl]

Branded, you've made a few references about using high DMI sires with no mention of RADG. I'm curious, do you prefer higher DMI sires and why?

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

Branded, would you please explain what Angus Source is? You refer to it quite often. The only Angus Source program I'm familiar with is a feeder calf program that verifies partial Angus genetics to potential buyers through a special tag. It isn't a very popular program.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded, would you please explain what Angus Source is? You refer to it quite often. The only Angus Source program I'm familiar with is a feeder calf program that verifies partial Angus genetics to potential buyers through a special tag. It isn't a very popular program.

My apologies, I meant to say the Angus GS testing by Neogen.

You are correct Angus Source is not a dna test.

In the past we used HD50K testing which is basically the same, but I feel that in the future Angus GS might have a slight edge. We now only use Angus GS with the genetics bundle testing for recessives.

Didn't mean to confuse you.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded, you've made a few references about using high DMI sires with no mention of RADG. I'm curious, do you prefer higher DMI sires and why?

I don't use high DMI sires, haven't for the past few years. In the past however we did use them, so we have high DMI in our older females.

RADG is important to me, hence why I like using SAV genetics. Crossing SAV with top DMI dams has resulted in progeny that is still above breed average for DMI, but I get a lift in RADG and $B.

I hear about fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I bred a low input type cow to SAV International 2020 and I got a very nice bull out of that mating. The bull is not like the sire or the dam, and he is Angus GS tested, he was a very pleasant surprise. Had we not done that mating how would we have known?

As for the fire and ice matings, why wouldn't a non tested bull to a non tested cow be fire and ice? I at least make an educated guess in sire selection, and I base it on genomic epds, not just phenotype.

Check out this bull calf I have right now

AAA 19193579

He's the one I'm talking about

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

Branded, would you please explain what Angus Source is? You refer to it quite often. The only Angus Source program I'm familiar with is a feeder calf program that verifies partial Angus genetics to potential buyers through a special tag. It isn't a very popular program.

My apologies, I meant to say the Angus GS testing by Neogen.

You are correct Angus Source is not a dna test.

In the past we used HD50K testing which is basically the same, but I feel that in the future Angus GS might have a slight edge. We now only use Angus GS with the genetics bundle testing for recessives.

Didn't mean to confuse you.

You didn't confuse me. I knew what Angus Source was.

 

[Midtenn]

Branded, you've made a few references about using high DMI sires with no mention of RADG. I'm curious, do you prefer higher DMI sires and why?

I don't use high DMI sires, haven't for the past few years. In the past however we did use them, so we have high DMI in our older females.

RADG is important to me, hence why I like using SAV genetics. Crossing SAV with top DMI dams has resulted in progeny that is still above breed average for DMI, but I get a lift in RADG and $B.

I hear about fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I bred a low input type cow to SAV International 2020 and I got a very nice bull out of that mating. The bull is not like the sire or the dam, and he is Angus GS tested, he was a very pleasant surprise. Had we not done that mating how would we have known?

As for the fire and ice matings, why wouldn't a non tested bull to a non tested cow be fire and ice? I at least make an educated guess in sire selection, and I base it on genomic epds, not just phenotype.

Check out this bull calf I have right now

AAA 19193579

He's the one I'm talking about

I guess when it comes to making replacements , you could say I'm doing "fire and ice" matings in my commercial herd. My most fertile, trouble-free cows are usually smaller framed. I only keep replacements from those particular cows when they are bred to larger, growthier, higher $B type bulls.
Then again, I have some higher $B type cows that I really like, fertile enough, grow big calves, etc. but I wouldn't dare keep a replacement from them when bred to a terminal bull. I think I would just be asking for fertility problems if I kept stacking that $B. ...... So far this method has been working pretty good.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

When you breed "fire & ice" - you may get offspring that are a blend - but you may get full sibs that are fire OR ice.

 

[Ebenezer]

fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

one half of the equation. Other half, nothing ventured, nothing lost. With low margins, the path to profit is via decreased losses.

Here is a question that seems to plague breeding choice discussions: Do you believe that every calf from a specific cow/specific bull cross inherits genes that are 50% cow and 50% bull? If they do, why are EPDs estimates rather than knowns? Why are they presented in ranges rather than stated as facts?

My opinion/experience is that you have no idea of inheritance %s. Real heterosis covers up the unknowns as dissimilar and dissimilar mixes create a stability while kin to kin matings allow a sorting of genes that can increase variance. So I see a gray area in within breed crosses with low %IBC matings while higher %IBC crosses with some proven prepotency can begin to create stability. Naw, I don't want things to get dull 'round here! ;-)

 

[gpl]

Branded, you've made a few references about using high DMI sires with no mention of RADG. I'm curious, do you prefer higher DMI sires and why?

I don't use high DMI sires, haven't for the past few years. In the past
however we did use them, so we have high DMI in our older females.
RADG is important to me, hence why I like using SAV genetics. Crossing SAV with top DMI dams has resulted in progeny that is still above breed average for DMI, but I get a lift in RADG and $B.

I hear about fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I bred a low input type cow to SAV International 2020 and I got a very nice bull out of that mating. The bull is not like the sire or the dam, and he is Angus GS tested, he was a very pleasant surprise. Had we not done that mating how would we have known?

As for the fire and ice matings, why wouldn't a non tested bull to a non tested cow be fire and ice? I at least make an educated guess in sire selection, and I base it on genomic epds, not just phenotype.

Check out this bull calf I have right now

AAA 19193579

He's the one I'm talking about

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was looking at President, America and Raindance who each rank in the bottom 40% for DMI but we must just define "high" differently. Thanks

 

[Lazy M]

Branded, you've made a few references about using high DMI sires with no mention of RADG. I'm curious, do you prefer higher DMI sires and why?

I don't use high DMI sires, haven't for the past few years. In the past however we did use them, so we have high DMI in our older females.

RADG is important to me, hence why I like using SAV genetics. Crossing SAV with top DMI dams has resulted in progeny that is still above breed average for DMI, but I get a lift in RADG and $B.

I hear about fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I bred a low input type cow to SAV International 2020 and I got a very nice bull out of that mating. The bull is not like the sire or the dam, and he is Angus GS tested, he was a very pleasant surprise. Had we not done that mating how would we have known?

As for the fire and ice matings, why wouldn't a non tested bull to a non tested cow be fire and ice? I at least make an educated guess in sire selection, and I base it on genomic epds, not just phenotype.

Check out this bull calf I have right now

AAA 19193579

He's the one I'm talking about

I'll probably regret this but:
Strictly by the predicted numbers this bull will offer good growth and carcass traits. He also is scraping the bottom of the breed's barrel for CE, BW, and DOC. My question would be why you'd breed this cow to a bull that can only offer terminal type offspring? Couldn't you have used a more balanced bull and produced a more marketable calf?

 

[CreekAngus]

fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

one half of the equation. Other half, nothing ventured, nothing lost. With low margins, the path to profit is via decreased losses.

Here is a question that seems to plague breeding choice discussions: Do you believe that every calf from a specific cow/specific bull cross inherits genes that are 50% cow and 50% bull? If they do, why are EPDs estimates rather than knowns? Why are they presented in ranges rather than stated as facts?

My opinion/experience is that you have no idea of inheritance %s. Real heterosis covers up the unknowns as dissimilar and dissimilar mixes create a stability while kin to kin matings allow a sorting of genes that can increase variance. So I see a gray area in within breed crosses with low %IBC matings while higher %IBC crosses with some proven prepotency can begin to create stability. Naw, I don't want things to get dull 'round here! ;-)

Finally some fresh air. A basic understanding of genotype, will give someone an understanding that when you bred A to B doesn't always equal = A+. You could end up with A-, B-, B+ or AB. Breeding a 7 frame to a 5 frame, doesn't result in a 6, could end up with another 7 or 5, most likely something in between, but rarely the 6 you think you were going to get.. This is why I don't breed by the numbers. Numbers assume if I breed a 80 ww to a 40 ww it will equal 60 ww. It doesn't work that way the progeny will reflect the most dominant genes. It doesn't matter if your a commercial guy or registered gal, you are looking for good animals that stamp their progeny with their dominant genes, hence why line breeding works so well...anyone who disagrees that line breeding doesn't work, please take the EXT influence out of your herd, probably won't have any cattle left, but please disagree with line breeding.