Angus bull thoughts.

[CattleMan1920]

Don't get your pants all wadded up. youve got a lot of book knowledge rolling around that noggin. Most people i think wouldn't give a rats azz about saying how old they were, unless they're a female.

Surprisingly I don't have too many cattle books. I do experiment a lot. I try things that others won't do, because they are not sure how it will turn out.

Cattle are a lot like cooking. You go to a restaurant and they have a combination that you think "that won't work, that won't taste right" then you try a sample and you say "that is delicious, never knew those flavors would go together"

That's what I do out here.

 

[Ebenezer]

In that case my name is Ron , I'm in my mid 60s, and live in Kentucky.

live in Kentucky.

you have my sympathy! :lol:

I'm a year older than I was last year.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I wouldn't have fresh genetics.

Rito 707
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Your answer for the foundation of SAV being "old genetics"? They don't look too fresh to me.

Please define "new genetics" or is that a KY term when somebody quits inbreeding from multi-generational home raised bulls and goes to the stockyard and buys a $1000 cull bull to use as a herd bull? I consider such talk as Blue Smoke.

None of the names above are direct sires of my cattle. Grandsires or great grandsires, yes.

New genetics is defined as this. I'm not taking a son off my favorite bull, breeding him to my whole herd, including his own dam, then taking a son from that and doing the same thing all over again, never introducing a bull from another herd ever. For years upon years.

To me, fresh genetics is breeding to SAV one season, then crossing those daughters with bulls like Baldridge Colonel, Hoover Dam, Sydgen Enhance, or Bubs Southern Charm.

I assure it would be far less work for me if I just linebred everything, and never introduced an outside bull into the herd. FAR EASIER!

You keep implying that I am somehow doing things wrong, but the best Angus operations in the country, if you pull up their sales going on right now, use outside AI genetics throughout their herd.

Show me a completely closed, linebred herd, I want to see their sale results on AAA.

 

[Ebenezer]

You are referring to line crossing. I hear it works in 49 states. But the "new genetics" is a hogwash term.

 

[CattleMan1920]

You are referring to line crossing. I hear it works in 49 states. But the "new genetics" is a hogwash term

Pedantics

 

[76 Bar]

gizmom...appreciated your response. Sigh...Unfortunately the thread has been usurped. :roll:

 

[Backbone Ranch]

I wouldn't have fresh genetics.

Rito 707
Sitz traveler 8180
Bushwhacker
EXT
Paxton
In Focus
Gridmaker
598
Traveler

Your answer for the foundation of SAV being "old genetics"? They don't look too fresh to me.

Please define "new genetics" or is that a KY term when somebody quits inbreeding from multi-generational home raised bulls and goes to the stockyard and buys a $1000 cull bull to use as a herd bull? I consider such talk as Blue Smoke.

None of the names above are direct sires of my cattle. Grandsires or great grandsires, yes.

New genetics is defined as this. I'm not taking a son off my favorite bull, breeding him to my whole herd, including his own dam, then taking a son from that and doing the same thing all over again, never introducing a bull from another herd ever. For years upon years.

To me, fresh genetics is breeding to SAV one season, then crossing those daughters with bulls like Baldridge Colonel, Hoover Dam, Sydgen Enhance, or Bubs Southern Charm.

I assure it would be far less work for me if I just linebred everything, and never introduced an outside bull into the herd. FAR EASIER!

You keep implying that I am somehow doing things wrong, but the best Angus operations in the country, if you pull up their sales going on right now, use outside AI genetics throughout their herd.

Show me a completely closed, linebred herd, I want to see their sale results on AAA.

I know that SAV has a very successful program, but I do not see anything wrong with using the son of an AI sire as a herd bull over your females and keeping the progeny. Our best calves have consistently come from the grandson of a bull that was used as an AI sire. I understand that there is more hype with selling a son of so and so rather than selling a son of a bull with your prefix, but the quality of the cattle may be more consistent if you focused on the best producing cow lines in your herd, retained a bull from them, and then used that bull over the rest of your herd. You can still AI for genetic diversity and to improve traits that are lacking, but I have a hard time understanding why you discount the progeny of the clean up bull, especially if he comes from a high producing line of cows and a top AI sire.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Rito 707
Sitz traveler 8180
Bushwhacker
EXT
Paxton
In Focus
Gridmaker
598
Traveler

Your answer for the foundation of SAV being "old genetics"? They don't look too fresh to me.

Please define "new genetics" or is that a KY term when somebody quits inbreeding from multi-generational home raised bulls and goes to the stockyard and buys a $1000 cull bull to use as a herd bull? I consider such talk as Blue Smoke.

None of the names above are direct sires of my cattle. Grandsires or great grandsires, yes.

New genetics is defined as this. I'm not taking a son off my favorite bull, breeding him to my whole herd, including his own dam, then taking a son from that and doing the same thing all over again, never introducing a bull from another herd ever. For years upon years.

To me, fresh genetics is breeding to SAV one season, then crossing those daughters with bulls like Baldridge Colonel, Hoover Dam, Sydgen Enhance, or Bubs Southern Charm.

I assure it would be far less work for me if I just linebred everything, and never introduced an outside bull into the herd. FAR EASIER!

You keep implying that I am somehow doing things wrong, but the best Angus operations in the country, if you pull up their sales going on right now, use outside AI genetics throughout their herd.

Show me a completely closed, linebred herd, I want to see their sale results on AAA.

I know that SAV has a very successful program, but I do not see anything wrong with using the son of an AI sire as a herd bull over your females and keeping the progeny. Our best calves have consistently come from the grandson of a bull that was used as an AI sire. I understand that there is more hype with selling a son of so and so rather than selling a son of a bull with your prefix, but the quality of the cattle may be more consistent if you focused on the best producing cow lines in your herd, retained a bull from them, and then used that bull over the rest of your herd. You can still AI for genetic diversity and to improve traits that are lacking, but I have a hard time understanding why you discount the progeny of the clean up bull, especially if he comes from a high producing line of cows and a top AI sire.

We have a SAV Harvestor son that is going to be used this spring on some of the older cows.

What you said above makes perfect sense, and we intend to keep the daughters from the non AI bulls. I'm pretty sure they will turn out well. As for the males, we will probably steer them, not because they will not make good quality sires, but because the market is inundated here with cheap bulls. When you look at the price difference between what an AI son will bring and what a non AI son will bring, it's most likely cheaper to steer them and get them out the door quickly. I personally think that what you said about grandsons is correct, but the market sees it differently. I raised and sold some really nice grandsons that worked just fine for commercial producers, but they would have been far easier to sell as direct AI sons.

Raising a bull to 16 months, and developing him well, then getting $1500 for him, as I have seen at some sales lately doesn't make any sense. I've been seeing quite a few sub $2k registered bulls go through the ring, at that price I would rather band them.

What is even more nuts to me is that those sub $2k bulls came with an offer to feed them for 60 days for free to help out the buyer if they were not ready to take the bull right away. That to me is like Chevy offering $15k cash back and 0% financing to move the trucks. Not a good business plan.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Branded if you are breeding the best to the best why are you not producing the best?

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded if you are breeding the best to the best why are you not producing the best?

Do you know what we have on ground right now? Or did you just blurt out your comment without thinking.

Not everything we have is posted on CT for criticism, you will have to dig on AAA for that info.

Let's just say, we had the first Colonel progeny in KY, we had the first Raindance and President progeny in the state, now we have the first Elation progeny (plural) in KY. There is even more interesting NON SAV progeny on the way, I will parse that out over the year for you.

We had Elation progeny before Square B did, and you think we are snoozing?

That may not matter to you, and that's fine, but if you are selling private treaty, there are buyers out there that crave exclusivity and they want the finished product before anyone else. Bragging rights. They want to tell their buddies, "I have the only SAV President son in service in Kentucky. That is if those President sons even sell here when available. They will most likely leave the state. I can almost say with certainty that they will not sell in Kentucky, but maybe I will be pleasantly surprised. It would be nice if they stayed in the state.

Please tell me one sale in KY where a SAV President son was available. Where? Lot's of Cowboy Up's but no Presidents.

I had offers on my President daughters before they were even weaned, and offers to show them by a gal that is a pro in the show circuit. I declined on the showing and the sale because they are going into service as soon as possible. They are working gals.

 

[Rydero]

I will parse that out over the year for you.


Please tell me one sale in KY where a SAV President son was available. Where? Lot's of Cowboy Up's but no Presidents.

Please don't.

Nobody cares but you. Wow you think you might have the only President son's born in the 14th largest cattle producing state. Have a parade and see if anyone shows up. Shame on the internet for giving you a platform for your endless SAV fanboyism.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I don't care what you have on the ground. I just asked a simple question which you didn't answer. As normal you just blew a lot of smoke. Are you breeding the best to the best? If you are why do you not have the best? If you have the best why are you still chasing the best?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

The best never rest.

 

[Rydero]

I don't care what you have on the ground. I just asked a simple question which you didn't answer. As normal you just blew a lot of smoke. Are you breeding the best to the best? If you are why do you not have the best? If you have the best why are you still chasing the best?

You didn't ask me but I doubt you'll get a straight answer just more smoke about we have this SAV son or that SAV daughter and just wait till you see what ELSE we have coming. I believe it's an attempt to advertise, it isn't a conversation at least not a good one when it's so one sided.

Chasing the best will never make you the best. You have to lead. Used to be a show about the Ititarod dog race in Alaska I used to watch. One season this guy's big plan was to follow Lance Mackey and do whatever he did and just pass him at the end. He got played for a fool. Lance made a stop and pretended to go to sleep, guy follows suit then Lance gets up and go's all night to win the race. The guys and gals selling the semen and embryos are the champs and most of those buying it are following along and paying the bills. You can't catch them, when you get close they'll change the game. The best bull is who they say it is, whoever they pay the most for. You can buy a piece of him but by the time the calves hit the ground there's a new champ.

 

[dbird33]

Branded if you are breeding the best to the best why are you not producing the best?

Do you know what we have on ground right now? Or did you just blurt out your comment without thinking.

Not everything we have is posted on CT for criticism, you will have to dig on AAA for that info.

Let's just say, we had the first Colonel progeny in KY, we had the first Raindance and President progeny in the state, now we have the first Elation progeny (plural) in KY. There is even more interesting NON SAV progeny on the way, I will parse that out over the year for you.

We had Elation progeny before Square B did, and you think we are snoozing?

That may not matter to you, and that's fine, but if you are selling private treaty, there are buyers out there that crave exclusivity and they want the finished product before anyone else. Bragging rights. They want to tell their buddies, "I have the only SAV President son in service in Kentucky. That is if those President sons even sell here when available. They will most likely leave the state. I can almost say with certainty that they will not sell in Kentucky, but maybe I will be pleasantly surprised. It would be nice if they stayed in the state.

Please tell me one sale in KY where a SAV President son was available. Where? Lot's of Cowboy Up's but no Presidents.

I had offers on my President daughters before they were even weaned, and offers to show them by a gal that is a pro in the show circuit. I declined on the showing and the sale because they are going into service as soon as possible. They are working gals.

I think the must use "X" bull first culture is really dangerous for the breed. I'm not pointing this comment at Branded specifically, but more as an observation I see happening all over. I saw a DDC bull sell for $5k at a sell a few weeks ago because he was a Basin Payweight 1682 son. Now maybe he's a straight terminal bull or they have a lot of extra time and money to test every heifer calf out of him, but to me it was an example of fad buying. I think a lot of flaws are overlooked at sales because of the sire's prefix and sweet growth epd's.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Rydero you hit the nail on the head. Chasing the best is a never ending chase. Only way you ever win is when you chase your own best.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded if you are breeding the best to the best why are you not producing the best?

Do you know what we have on ground right now? Or did you just blurt out your comment without thinking.

Not everything we have is posted on CT for criticism, you will have to dig on AAA for that info.

Let's just say, we had the first Colonel progeny in KY, we had the first Raindance and President progeny in the state, now we have the first Elation progeny (plural) in KY. There is even more interesting NON SAV progeny on the way, I will parse that out over the year for you.

We had Elation progeny before Square B did, and you think we are snoozing?

That may not matter to you, and that's fine, but if you are selling private treaty, there are buyers out there that crave exclusivity and they want the finished product before anyone else. Bragging rights. They want to tell their buddies, "I have the only SAV President son in service in Kentucky. That is if those President sons even sell here when available. They will most likely leave the state. I can almost say with certainty that they will not sell in Kentucky, but maybe I will be pleasantly surprised. It would be nice if they stayed in the state.

Please tell me one sale in KY where a SAV President son was available. Where? Lot's of Cowboy Up's but no Presidents.

I had offers on my President daughters before they were even weaned, and offers to show them by a gal that is a pro in the show circuit. I declined on the showing and the sale because they are going into service as soon as possible. They are working gals.

I think the must use "X" bull first culture is really dangerous for the breed. I'm not pointing this comment at Branded specifically, but more as an observation I see happening all over. I saw a DDC bull sell for $5k at a sell a few weeks ago because he was a Basin Payweight 1682 son. Now maybe he's a straight terminal bull or they have a lot of extra time and money to test every heifer calf out of him, but to me it was an example of fad buying. I think a lot of flaws are overlooked at sales because of the sire's prefix and sweet growth epd's.

We always test for recessives.

Nothing would be sold here that is a confirmed carrier.

 

[CattleMan1920]

The best can be proven with data.

I've always been open with mine. I have DNA proven parentage, not "trust me it's a XYZ son because I say so"

You guys just like to squawk, imparting your great wisdom on us all. Without anything to back it up. I could name 10 top Angus operations that use semen from another operation's sires. Are they inferior because of that? Your comments are ridiculous.

If you have better than me, put up or shut up. I only trust AAA info, not your word. I'm under no illusion that cattle exist that are better than mine, that's a given. What I do have however are some of the first to hit the ground, at least one's that are DNA proven.

I go under our real name on here. What's the "real" name of your operation? Or others on here that criticize me. I could have always started an account under some silly name and posted anonymously, but I didn't .

 

[W.B.]

The best can be proven with data.

I've always been open with mine. I have DNA proven parentage, not "trust me it's a XYZ son because I say so"

You guys just like to squawk, imparting your great wisdom on us all. Without anything to back it up. I could name 10 top Angus operations that use semen from another operation's sires. Are they inferior because of that? Your comments are ridiculous.

If you have better than me, put up or shut up. I only trust AAA info, not your word. I'm under no illusion that cattle exist that are better than mine, that's a given. What I do have however are some of the first to hit the ground, at least one's that are DNA proven.

I go under our real name on here. What's the "real" name of your operation? Or others on here that criticize me. I could have always started an account under some silly name and posted anonymously, but I didn't .

You are always advocating for genomic testing and I think you are on the right track with it. Yet you brag about using bulls that aren't genomic tested. Why is this?

 

[CattleMan1920]

The best can be proven with data.

I've always been open with mine. I have DNA proven parentage, not "trust me it's a XYZ son because I say so"

You guys just like to squawk, imparting your great wisdom on us all. Without anything to back it up. I could name 10 top Angus operations that use semen from another operation's sires. Are they inferior because of that? Your comments are ridiculous.

If you have better than me, put up or shut up. I only trust AAA info, not your word. I'm under no illusion that cattle exist that are better than mine, that's a given. What I do have however are some of the first to hit the ground, at least one's that are DNA proven.

I go under our real name on here. What's the "real" name of your operation? Or others on here that criticize me. I could have always started an account under some silly name and posted anonymously, but I didn't .

You are always advocating for genomic testing and I think you are on the right track with it. Yet you brag about using bulls that aren't genomic tested. Why is this?

Because I'm taking a risk on them, as others are doing. Most of the AI sires I use are tested with the exception of some SAV bulls. I don't fear too much with the program at SAV, so I take my chances. I haven't had an Epic situation so far.

All the progeny I obtain from non tested AI sires are tested, and that is the basis from where I begin. When that progeny then produces progeny, I keep testing.

Everything I breed, in my own herd has been tested, then I test their calves.

It's pretty accurate.