Some thoughts on Certified Angus Beef

[Travlr]

Well, I don't shop there, but the manager for 3 of the Local Ingle's around here, says they sell CAB 2 to 1 over non CAB beef. Ingles is the highest supermarket we have..hjgher even than Publix. Meat manager at Kroger's where I shop, and is the lowest priced of the supermarkets thus where the "po' people" shop, says CAB is 80% of their total beef sales. So, people with even limited incomes will still pay more for quality. Both places have quit or about quit stocking non-CAB steaks, , roasts, prime rib,, brisket etc. About the only non-CAB they carry will be a little hamburger, stew beef, fajita strips, etc.

LOL... you must live in rarified air, Warren. The CAB sections in the three grocery stores I'm most familiar with are small compared to the rest of the meat counter.

You are such a salesman. Do you ever give anything in writing?

 

[Walker's Ridge]

I'm late, but wanted to add my thoughts. I typed a lot and decided F it all. So...

None of it matters. Black hide, CAB, etc, we're all being told what our used car is worth by others. If I let people tell me what they'd pay in my landscaping business...

CAB is nothing more than an attempt at getting a Cornish Cross in the beef world. A Carcass to fit the automated system of 4 packers in the entire country.

 

[CSM]

Curious, as to what breed or breeds you have, if you don't mind saying?

Charolais. For many years I had a few black crossbred cows but when I began to start slowing down they were the first to go. The blacks were much harder to handle compared to the Charolais.

 

[sstterry]

Celebrity chef Robert Irving with my red-headed stepchildView attachment 31512

Did he film a Resurtrant Rescue near you?

 

[TCRanch]

Did he film a Resurtrant Rescue near you?

No. Creekstone was a sponsor for the Sky Ball, a fundraising event by the Robert Irving Foundation for the military. Fun fact: he also purchases support dogs, has them trained, and donates them to veterans with PTSD.

 

[Ky hills]

Charolais. For many years I had a few black crossbred cows but when I began to start slowing down they were the first to go. The blacks were much harder to handle compared to the Charolais.

I've found that to be how it was with my Charolais too. I had registered Charolais, most them were so calm and easy to work with, every once in a while I'd get one that was flighty. On average the Charolais were much calmer and easier to handle than our current Angus or Herefords. I've culled a lot of Angus registered and commercial black cattle for being extremely high strung and even flat out dangerously aggressive.
On that note I've often wondered as to what amount of Angus end up being dark cutters.
I used to hear that Limousin had a high rate of dark cutters, but from what I've seen with Angus the percentage is bound to be significant. Limousins have worked on disposition, while Angus have an EPD, but but that particular one is what has convinced me that most EPD's are little more than junk science.

 

[Davemk]

I've found that to be how it was with my Charolais too. I had registered Charolais, most them were so calm and easy to work with, every once in a while I'd get one that was flighty. On average the Charolais were much calmer and easier to handle than our current Angus or Herefords. I've culled a lot of Angus registered and commercial black cattle for being extremely high strung and even flat out dangerously aggressive.
On that note I've often wondered as to what amount of Angus end up being dark cutters.
I used to hear that Limousin had a high rate of dark cutters, but from what I've seen with Angus the percentage is bound to be significant. Limousins have worked on disposition, while Angus have an EPD, but but that particular one is what has convinced me that most EPD's are little more than junk science.

Cows are not my thing, but we do have 4 shorthorn x Simmental cows and heifers that were former or current show heifers, they are so easy to handle and don't try to kill me when they have calve.

 

[Ky hills]

Cows are not my thing, but we do have 4 shorthorn x Simmental cows and heifers that were former or current show heifers, they are so easy to handle and don't try to kill me when they have calve.

It's good to be able to work with them if needed for sure.
I'll give a cow a pass though, for being protective of her new calf, as long as they simmer down by a week or two.
There are some that are pretty extreme and I've found that those are pretty much that way with a calf or without.
The one area that I would fault my Charolais with was that a lot were so docile that we did have coyote predation problems with young calves especially from heifers. There were a few of those Charolais cows though that were head hunters for a couple weeks and when they calved you definitely didn't want to be anywhere around them.
Since having Angus and Hereford cows, we haven't had many issues with coyotes.

 

[jscunn]

I've found that to be how it was with my Charolais too. I had registered Charolais, most them were so calm and easy to work with, every once in a while I'd get one that was flighty. On average the Charolais were much calmer and easier to handle than our current Angus or Herefords. I've culled a lot of Angus registered and commercial black cattle for being extremely high strung and even flat out dangerously aggressive.
On that note I've often wondered as to what amount of Angus end up being dark cutters.
I used to hear that Limousin had a high rate of dark cutters, but from what I've seen with Angus the percentage is bound to be significant. Limousins have worked on disposition, while Angus have an EPD, but but that particular one is what has convinced me that most EPD's are little more than junk science.

KY hills,
I think in most cases especially around the extremes (over 30 or close to 0) I think the EPD is pretty good. Breed below avg docility cows to the high end bulls and the resulting calf is better than the mother.

 

[Ky hills]

KY hills,
I think in most cases especially around the extremes (over 30 or close to 0) I think the EPD is pretty good. Breed below avg docility cows to the high end bulls and the resulting calf is better than the mother.

I respectfully disagree. Docility EPD's are extremely subjective at best.
I have 0 confidence in that EPD and while your statement on its application is logical it does not work that way in all situations from what I have seen.
I've shared this many times on here, one year I bred some heifers to a certain bull heavily promoted as a breed leading docility, calving ease bull. We got 2 calves by him from a daughter of Image Maker and a daughter to TC Franklin (Franklin is a sin of TC Total which is known for siring good disposition offspring).
The Image Maker heifer had a heifer calf and I was expecting a bit of a skittish calf from her because the mother was somewhat standoffish but definitely not hard to work with once contained.
The Franklin daughter had a bull calf, and I just knew right from the start that he was going to be a keeper for herd bull because his mother was just so calm and the sire was supposed to be. Well it wasn't long until those calves true disposition came out. They were "Absolute" crazy. One day you could almost pet the bull calf, the next time if he saw you 100 ft away he would almost break his neck running into a fence to get away. That got more pronounced as time went on. He took a gate of the hinges in the working alleyway.
The other calves their age by my Bismarck x In Focus herd bull would literally just stand and watch those two crazy calves.
The heifer calf was as pretty a calf as I've ever raised in 30 years, and bull looked decent, but due to their craziness I just loaded them up at weaning and sold them as feeders rather than to fool with that and risk them ruining the other calves.
Another example was we AI bred sone commercial cows to the old bull Lead On again supposed to be decent docility, but they were unusually flighty too in comparison to other calves.
I have had decent results with the dispositions of Hoover Dam and Power Tool calves which both have above average docility numbers. Have also had decent results with various other New Designs, Bismarcks, and a Frontman that all of which had average or low numbers.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I respectfully disagree. Docility EPD's are extremely subjective at best.
I have 0 confidence in that EPD and while your statement on its application is logical it does not work that way in all situations from what I have seen.
I've shared this many times on here, one year I bred some heifers to a certain bull heavily promoted as a breed leading docility, calving ease bull. We got 2 calves by him from a daughter of Image Maker and a daughter to TC Franklin (Franklin is a sin of TC Total which is known for siring good disposition offspring).
The Image Maker heifer had a heifer calf and I was expecting a bit of a skittish calf from her because the mother was somewhat standoffish but definitely not hard to work with once contained.
The Franklin daughter had a bull calf, and I just knew right from the start that he was going to be a keeper for herd bull because his mother was just so calm and the sire was supposed to be. Well it wasn't long until those calves true disposition came out. They were "Absolute" crazy. One day you could almost pet the bull calf, the next time if he saw you 100 ft away he would almost break his neck running into a fence to get away. That got more pronounced as time went on. He took a gate of the hinges in the working alleyway.
The other calves their age by my Bismarck x In Focus herd bull would literally just stand and watch those two crazy calves.
The heifer calf was as pretty a calf as I've ever raised in 30 years, and bull looked decent, but due to their craziness I just loaded them up at weaning and sold them as feeders rather than to fool with that and risk them ruining the other calves.
Another example was we AI bred sone commercial cows to the old bull Lead On again supposed to be decent docility, but they were unusually flighty too in comparison to other calves.
I have had decent results with the dispositions of Hoover Dam and Power Tool calves which both have above average docility numbers. Have also had decent results with various other New Designs, Bismarcks, and a Frontman that all of which had average or low numbers.

I have low confidence in today's EPD's period.
No matter the association improvement of the breeds is not what it's about anymore.
It's about selling paper today.
Got to remember figures don't lie but liars figure.
They should be breeding for phenotype .

 

[Ky hills]

I have low confidence in today's EPD's period.
No matter the association improvement of the breeds is not what it's about anymore.
It's about selling paper today.
Got to remember figures don't lie but liars figure.
They should be breeding for phenotype .

Absolutely, agree 100%.
EPD's are nothing more than junk science and a new ever changing marketing system.
It's caused people to breed by numbers instead of phenotype. To me it doesn't matter what the genotype says, if the phenotype doesn't work.

 

[Brute 23]

EPDs were the best marketing reg producers ever did. You no longer have to know about cattle. You just have to read the numbers and they will tell you which is the best. What could go wrong there.

EPDs will destroy cattle like "clicks" destroyed journalism.

 

[Travlr]

EPDs were the best marketing reg producers ever did. You know longer have to know about cattle. You just have to read the numbers and they will tell you which is the best. What could go wrong there.

EPDs will destroy cattle like "clicks" destroyed journalism.

I've seen a lot of cattle with great EPDs that I would never care to own... and the people that do own them sell them to someone.

 

[50/50Farms]

The shocking secret if you want classically good cattle is to breed good cows to good bulls, based entirely off the same handful of basic traits focused on for a few hundred years now. Don't tell anybody... It's a secret.

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

Environment and handling has a lot to do with docility too. My cows were calm as heck, then I had to take a year plus off due to health. I fed 1800# bales in a covered shed with a skidsteer very little interaction other than vaccines. That round of calves were super crazy!!

 

[50/50Farms]

Environment and handling has a lot to do with docility too. My cows were calm as heck, then I had to take a year plus off due to health. I fed 1800# bales in a covered shed with a skidsteer very little interaction other than vaccines. That round of calves were super crazy!!

Well, the thing with calves is that in a small herd you cannot do overly better with them than their mamas. If their mamas take being baited, cajoled, rode drag on for those that split, etc just to get them into a working pen and then want to try to do everything but get cut in or out depending on circumstance, they are creating the reaction that their calves will start with.

 

[50/50Farms]

And before anybody gets on the line of them being individuals, when I was younger and """bulletproof""" I kept a whole family line of cows that were batshite insane to work with in a pen, to cut calves off of, or to work their calves on the ground. I kept them because the calves were good. Well, even with the calves we didn't keep off of that line and sold at 6-8 months, they were hard to work. They had a trait, learned or inherited. I had one of my BWF 650-700ish weight heifers ball me up like tissue paper. Broke my phone. If I had not taken my gun off a few minutes prior, I'd have killed the slag flat dead.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Certified Brimmer cross heifers today at the barn.

 

[Katpau]

I respectfully disagree. Docility EPD's are extremely subjective at best.
I have 0 confidence in that EPD and while your statement on its application is logical it does not work that way in all situations from what I have seen.
I've shared this many times on here, one year I bred some heifers to a certain bull heavily promoted as a breed leading docility, calving ease bull. We got 2 calves by him from a daughter of Image Maker and a daughter to TC Franklin (Franklin is a sin of TC Total which is known for siring good disposition offspring).
The Image Maker heifer had a heifer calf and I was expecting a bit of a skittish calf from her because the mother was somewhat standoffish but definitely not hard to work with once contained.
The Franklin daughter had a bull calf, and I just knew right from the start that he was going to be a keeper for herd bull because his mother was just so calm and the sire was supposed to be. Well it wasn't long until those calves true disposition came out. They were "Absolute" crazy. One day you could almost pet the bull calf, the next time if he saw you 100 ft away he would almost break his neck running into a fence to get away. That got more pronounced as time went on. He took a gate of the hinges in the working alleyway.
The other calves their age by my Bismarck x In Focus herd bull would literally just stand and watch those two crazy calves.
The heifer calf was as pretty a calf as I've ever raised in 30 years, and bull looked decent, but due to their craziness I just loaded them up at weaning and sold them as feeders rather than to fool with that and risk them ruining the other calves.
Another example was we AI bred sone commercial cows to the old bull Lead On again supposed to be decent docility, but they were unusually flighty too in comparison to other calves.
I have had decent results with the dispositions of Hoover Dam and Power Tool calves which both have above average docility numbers. Have also had decent results with various other New Designs, Bismarcks, and a Frontman that all of which had average or low numbers.

Would that be TC Franklin 619? He scores poorly for docility according to EPD's, with an accuracy of 81%. He would be in the bottom 25% of the breed for docility, so it looks like the EPD's are working. I don't really trust any low accuacy EPD, so if you used him back when his EPD's were based mostly on reports from the owners I can see why you would be disappointed.