Some thoughts on Certified Angus Beef

[Katpau]

Angus are getting a bit of a bashing for docility here, and I assume that is likely due to the popularity of certain bloodlines in the past that had a reputation for poor dispositions. (for example EXT or Emulation 31). Just like every other quality, docility is something you can select for, but if using EPD's, you need to make sure the EPD has some accuracy or it is fairly worthless. I think you will find Angus to be no different than any breed in that area. I consider docility important, and I have about 40 registered Angus cows at this time. There is not a single one on the place right now that I don't feel safe walking right up to, and tagging her new born calf. That has taken some ruthless culling over the years, but it pays off. Last year I had to cull a 4 year old cow that had already successfully weaned 4 calves. She first calved at 13 months. She was always skittish, but had not been aggressive. That changed after she knocked me down when her new calf began to struggle. She was shipped as soon as that calf was weaned. She came from a line of cows that traced back to a Saugahatchee cow I once owned who was a real b*tch. (I was younger and more agile then, and more tolerant of bad behavior) I need to watch this line, but I have some descendants that are real sweethearts.

 

[Ky hills]

Would that be TC Franklin 619? He scores poorly for docility according to EPD's, with an accuracy of 81%. He would be in the bottom 25% of the breed for docility, so it looks like the EPD's are working. I don't really trust any low accuacy EPD, so if you used him back when his EPD's were based mostly on reports from the owners I can see why you would be disappointed.

The dam of one of the calves was by TC Franklin 619. She was as sweet as a peach and calm as a cucumber, one of the most docile Angus I have ever had.
The actual sire of the calf was KCF Bennett Absolute, which I did not specifically mention in the post but did drop a clue to his name.
Absolute was heavily promoted as a top docility bull.
Knowing what I know now with him being a son of Final Answer I would have never used him in the first place, but at that time I was all hyped up about Final Answer, then after getting some FA daughters it wasn't long till I was sick of them. The crazy comes honest through Final Answer from Sitz Traveler 8180,
I think the bloodlines themselves are the best indicator of Angus disposition, regardless of EPD's, management/environment etc, there are just some that are naturally nasty creatures. There are some lines that I would not want on the place as nearly every one I've seen has been plum crazy/aggressive.
The New Design 036 descendants aren't necessarily great docility EPD wise yet have been pretty good for us.
I just don't believe in the validity of EPD's they are just numbers that may have some truthful figures behind them, like BW and CE but still too much is subjective on growth and milk, and when you get to some if the categories like docility it's just somebody's interpretation at best. All in all I think EPD's are junk science that's made a few people a lot of money and the single most contributor to the decline of actual knowledge about what cattle are supposed to be.

 

[Travlr]

The dam of one of the calves was by TC Franklin 619. She was as sweet as a peach and calm as a cucumber, one of the most docile Angus I have ever had.
The actual sire of the calf was KCF Bennett Absolute, which I did not specifically mention in the post but did drop a clue to his name.
Absolute was heavily promoted as a top docility bull.
Knowing what I know now with him being a son of Final Answer I would have never used him in the first place, but at that time I was all hyped up about Final Answer, then after getting some FA daughters it wasn't long till I was sick of them. The crazy comes honest through Final Answer from Sitz Traveler 8180,
I think the bloodlines themselves are the best indicator of Angus disposition, regardless of EPD's, management/environment etc, there are just some that are naturally nasty creatures. There are some lines that I would not want on the place as nearly every one I've seen has been plum crazy/aggressive.
The New Design 036 descendants aren't necessarily great docility EPD wise yet have been pretty good for us.
I just don't believe in the validity of EPD's they are just numbers that may have some truthful figures behind them, like BW and CE but still too much is subjective on growth and milk, and when you get to some if the categories like docility it's just somebody's interpretation at best. All in all I think EPD's are junk science that's made a few people a lot of money and the single most contributor to the decline of actual knowledge about what cattle are supposed to be.

Makes me wonder how many palms get filled in the numbers game. There's really no way to know for sure. And if not cash, then good meals or some kind of insider tip. That kind of thing happens in every kind of evaluation/scoring kind of information if there as a monetary benefit to higher scores on the end product. And eventually the grift gets right to the top.

 

[Katpau]

Ky Hills
Absolute has a docility EPD of 18 with a 93% accuracy. That is not exactly a great docility EPD. I suspect your cow being sired by TC Franklin and then bred to Absolute, resulted in a throw back to some of the crazier attitudes of the past (and sometimes the present). I have quite a bit of EXT in my cows backgrounds, and I get a few wild calves every year, but since most calves are pretty laid back, they usually come around and are not too bad to work with. I just note who they are and if I don't pick them for replacements I avoid future problems. I report that information on every single calf to the AAA. It helps to increase future accuracy. I wish every breeder did it.
You did the right thing getting rid of them when you did.

 

[Ky hills]

Ky Hills
Absolute has a docility EPD of 18 with a 93% accuracy. That is not exactly a great docility EPD. I suspect your cow being sired by TC Franklin and then bred to Absolute, resulted in a throw back to some of the crazier attitudes of the past (and sometimes the present). I have quite a bit of EXT in my cows backgrounds, and I get a few wild calves every year, but since most calves are pretty laid back, they usually come around and are not too bad to work with. I just note who they are and if I don't pick them for replacements I avoid future problems. I report that information on every single calf to the AAA. It helps to increase future accuracy. I wish every breeder did it.
You did the right thing getting rid of them when you did.

When I used Absolute he was just a young bull, and at that time he had breed leading Docility. Apparently it has fallen considerably in the years since.
My point is even if more information came in over the years and made the number drop the fact remains that he started out at the top based on nothing and was promoted falsely.
To me that makes EPD's especially on young bulls completely worthless.
I'm glad that you report the information, and take it seriously.
I believe we have a responsibility to cull problematic cattle both for human safety and to avoid dark cutters.
I've seen some of the EXT stuff and was always leery if I saw it in a pedigree, but no doubt they were some good cattle from that line.
The ones that come to mind for me that I would never want are Objectives and 004's.
It seems like to me that probably the sheer number of Angus cattle and breeders(multipliers) that use AI based on EPD's and hype is the cause of common and widespread disposition problems in Angus.
It's another big problem that EPD's can't solve, and as time goes fewer and fewer people understand the basics of selection outside of numbers.
I pick on Angus the most because they are the most numerous breed and the breeders seem to be the most outspoken to brag so they get the criticism pretty easy. In reality all breeds have issues.
I'm also critical of other breeds also that are following the Angus trend of breeding by numbers and prefixes.

 

[Travlr]

Ky Hills
Absolute has a docility EPD of 18 with a 93% accuracy. That is not exactly a great docility EPD. I suspect your cow being sired by TC Franklin and then bred to Absolute, resulted in a throw back to some of the crazier attitudes of the past (and sometimes the present). I have quite a bit of EXT in my cows backgrounds, and I get a few wild calves every year, but since most calves are pretty laid back, they usually come around and are not too bad to work with. I just note who they are and if I don't pick them for replacements I avoid future problems. I report that information on every single calf to the AAA. It helps to increase future accuracy. I wish every breeder did it.
You did the right thing getting rid of them when you did.

Docility is supposedly one of the most heritable traits... Not sure I agree with that, but I haven't had many bad actors if both parents are docile enough to come when called and you can lay a hand on them without a reaction.

 

[Ky hills]

Docility is supposedly one of the most heritable traits... Not sure I agree with that, but I haven't had many bad actors if both parents are docile enough to come when called and you can lay a hand on them without a reaction.

I believe docility is inherited as much as environmental or management related.
We like to maintain cattle that come when called and that don't flip out and climb the wall when trying to work with them. Ours are not pets, they will not generally let you put a hand on them with the exception of 1 or 2, most will ease away at about arms length. I definitely don't want any that throw up their heads and run off or at you.
I've found that if a cow is wild and nervous it's a good chance that her calves will be too.
If a cow is calm same thing good chance they will be also.
I do believe that the bull contributes as well and sometimes there is a throwback that comes through that no matter how good the cow is and how your management is the calf is going to be affected by those genetics behind them and EPD's are just not an accurate prediction without a truthful, high accuracy.
I think a lot of times there's a difference in what people tolerate, translates to how they record.

 

[wbvs58]

We have EBV's and I don't think they are all that different to your EPD's just on different scale and numbers. I find the EBV's to be a very usefull tool and will give a reasonable indication of an animals genetic potential. The people that administer our EBV's are very dedicated scientists. The suggestion that some breeders might be greasing the palms of the administrators in return for good numbers is a load of codswallop.
We have had a Sire Benchmarking Programme running for about 16 years now where it is aimed to test the progeny of 40 bulls per year. 2000 cows are inseminated each year using fixed time AI with the aim to produce 25 progeny from each bull. These progeny are performance recorded every step of the way from birth to weaning, steers in the feedlot where feed efficiency is measured with individual feed stations through to carcase evaluation on the rail. Heifers are recorded right through conception to calving and beyond. It has been shown over numerous years that the EBV's of these unproven bulls at the start of the programme hold up very well against the EBV's when they have finished several years later. If anyone is interested in reading more about this I can post a link to the AA website. Each year a couple of US bulls are included to give a link to your EPD's also the UK. It is a very good programme and a lot of good research has been done along the way not just on EBV's, things like methane production.
As far as docility goes I have not had any problems in my herd yes, not all are the same, they have their personalities but I think my situation is not representative of a commercial herd, they get worked a lot with breeding them and heat detection and checking in the paddock so they fit in very well with what I do. As far as handling their calves I don't push things too far, It is not a black mark if they threaten me with their calf, they are just doing their job which they do very well.

Ken

 

[Ky hills]

We have EBV's and I don't think they are all that different to your EPD's just on different scale and numbers. I find the EBV's to be a very usefull tool and will give a reasonable indication of an animals genetic potential. The people that administer our EBV's are very dedicated scientists. The suggestion that some breeders might be greasing the palms of the administrators in return for good numbers is a load of codswallop.
We have had a Sire Benchmarking Programme running for about 16 years now where it is aimed to test the progeny of 40 bulls per year. 2000 cows are inseminated each year using fixed time AI with the aim to produce 25 progeny from each bull. These progeny are performance recorded every step of the way from birth to weaning, steers in the feedlot where feed efficiency is measured with individual feed stations through to carcase evaluation on the rail. Heifers are recorded right through conception to calving and beyond. It has been shown over numerous years that the EBV's of these unproven bulls at the start of the programme hold up very well against the EBV's when they have finished several years later. If anyone is interested in reading more about this I can post a link to the AA website. Each year a couple of US bulls are included to give a link to your EPD's also the UK. It is a very good programme and a lot of good research has been done along the way not just on EBV's, things like methane production.
As far as docility goes I have not had any problems in my herd yes, not all are the same, they have their personalities but I think my situation is not representative of a commercial herd, they get worked a lot with breeding them and heat detection and checking in the paddock so they fit in very well with what I do. As far as handling their calves I don't push things too far, It is not a black mark if they threaten me with their calf, they are just doing their job which they do very well.

Ken

I'm glad you mentioned the EBV's, and I hope you are correct about the integrity behind them. Unfortunately, I don't feel the same about things here as pertains to American EPD's, lots of greed driven agendas going on that are pretty self serving.
Back when I was having some AI breeding done, ABS was offering an Australian Angus bull called TE Mania. I really like that bull and almost ordered some straws. At that point I was still using EPD's for selection and wasn't sure about how the numbers for his EBV's translated. After some time they eventually did assign him some AAA EPD's, and they were quite low across the board. Seeing the BR New Design genetics back on one side of his pedigree, and knowing how those cattle look and perform, I couldn't help but think that our EPD's had him pegged very wrong.
Ken, I see your cattle pictures and videos and you have some very good quality cattle and they look like the type and kind I would be selecting for and using.
I used to have registered cattle, years ago Charolais, and more recently a few Angus, now we just have a couple registered cows left, but we still manage our commercial cattle in much the same way. We are no longer getting them in to AI but still run them through two to three times a year.
I don't mind at all if a cow is protective of her newborn calf, I see that as a must with all the predators around. I can forgo trying to tag a calf. I'd rather have a cow that won't let me near her calf and her keep it alive than to be able to work it with her calmly standing by only to find it missing or partially devoured the next time I look through the cattle. Ideally our cows will be protective and then ease up after a week or two.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The science behind the EPD's is good. I think there are too many huge breeders that have the ability to sway the numbers by how they report their offspring.
I don't think the inaccuracies in the numbers are as much of a problem as breeders are convinced the NUMBERS are the most important thing when picking bulls. They literally looking at books and records and NOT LOOKING at the offspring.....or their COWS to see what phenotype bull needed to correct any phenotype problems the cow has. No cow is perfect. There is always something she needs changed to make a more perfect calf. Her NUMBERS is not as important as her PHENOTYPE.

 

[Travlr]

The science behind the EPD's is good. I think there are too many huge breeders that have the ability to sway the numbers by how they report their offspring.
I don't think the inaccuracies in the numbers are as much of a problem as breeders are convinced the NUMBERS are the most important thing when picking bulls. They literally looking at books and records and NOT LOOKING at the offspring.....or their COWS to see what phenotype bull needed to correct any phenotype problems the cow has. No cow is perfect. There is always something she needs changed to make a more perfect calf. Her NUMBERS is not as important as her PHENOTYPE.

Absolutely!

 

[wbvs58]

I'm glad you mentioned the EBV's, and I hope you are correct about the integrity behind them. Unfortunately, I don't feel the same about things here as pertains to American EPD's, lots of greed driven agendas going on that are pretty self serving.
Back when I was having some AI breeding done, ABS was offering an Australian Angus bull called TE Mania. I really like that bull and almost ordered some straws. At that point I was still using EPD's for selection and wasn't sure about how the numbers for his EBV's translated. After some time they eventually did assign him some AAA EPD's, and they were quite low across the board. Seeing the BR New Design genetics back on one side of his pedigree, and knowing how those cattle look and perform, I couldn't help but think that our EPD's had him pegged very wrong.
Ken, I see your cattle pictures and videos and you have some very good quality cattle and they look like the type and kind I would be selecting for and using.
I used to have registered cattle, years ago Charolais, and more recently a few Angus, now we just have a couple registered cows left, but we still manage our commercial cattle in much the same way. We are no longer getting them in to AI but still run them through two to three times a year.
I don't mind at all if a cow is protective of her newborn calf, I see that as a must with all the predators around. I can forgo trying to tag a calf. I'd rather have a cow that won't let me near her calf and her keep it alive than to be able to work it with her calmly standing by only to find it missing or partially devoured the next time I look through the cattle. Ideally our cows will be protective and then ease up after a week or two.

KY I don't doubt your experiences and perceptions. I think everyones operation and experiences are different, I threw my experiences into the discussion to try to create a bit of balance to people reading this to realise it is not all doom and gloom to those that might be starting to dip their toe in the water with trying to up the ante a bit with their breeding. I think I take a pretty balanced selection process between phenotype and EBV's and am happy with the results generally.
We get a lot of US bulls here and many when introduced only have EPD's but the transition to EBV's seems to go a lot smoother these days, I think mostly with the help of genomics. I am guilty of sampling a few of these bulls at a cheaper rate and my data reporting helps to verify their EBV's but then I am a risk taker with most things I do. You win some, you lose some just as long as you recognise the winners and losers but no train wrecks so far, I do do my homework on those I sample though.

Ken

 

[Ky hills]

KY I don't doubt your experiences and perceptions. I think everyones operation and experiences are different, I threw my experiences into the discussion to try to create a bit of balance to people reading this to realise it is not all doom and gloom to those that might be starting to dip their toe in the water with trying to up the ante a bit with their breeding. I think I take a pretty balanced selection process between phenotype and EBV's and am happy with the results generally.
We get a lot of US bulls here and many when introduced only have EPD's but the transition to EBV's seems to go a lot smoother these days, I think mostly with the help of genomics. I am guilty of sampling a few of these bulls at a cheaper rate and my data reporting helps to verify their EBV's but then I am a risk taker with most things I do. You win some, you lose some just as long as you recognise the winners and losers but no train wrecks so far, I do do my homework on those I sample though.

Ken

Thank you Ken, for your insight, and I agree it's not all doom and gloom. I think from my perspective from being around several registered breeds Angus included, there is a tendency for salesmen and promoters to paint an all positive picture to new comers and they have to learn the hard and expensive way that there are some negatives. So I guess I'm in a sense pushing that side of it cause that's how I learned and I don't want people to have that false sense of security and get in to deep.
I used to enjoy talking the registered talk about the popular bulls and like you, said I tried several of them too, some worked, ok and some didn't.
I've always been a bit skeptical of EPD's and the longer it goes the less I pay attention to them as far being a decision maker or breaker when selecting.

 

[jscunn]

When I used Absolute he was just a young bull, and at that time he had breed leading Docility. Apparently it has fallen considerably in the years since.
My point is even if more information came in over the years and made the number drop the fact remains that he started out at the top based on nothing and was promoted falsely.
To me that makes EPD's especially on young bulls completely worthless.
I'm glad that you report the information, and take it seriously.
I believe we have a responsibility to cull problematic cattle both for human safety and to avoid dark cutters.
I've seen some of the EXT stuff and was always leery if I saw it in a pedigree, but no doubt they were some good cattle from that line.
The ones that come to mind for me that I would never want are Objectives and 004's.
It seems like to me that probably the sheer number of Angus cattle and breeders(multipliers) that use AI based on EPD's and hype is the cause of common and widespread disposition problems in Angus.
It's another big problem that EPD's can't solve, and as time goes fewer and fewer people understand the basics of selection outside of numbers.
I pick on Angus the most because they are the most numerous breed and the breeders seem to be the most outspoken to brag so they get the criticism pretty easy. In reality all breeds have issues.
I'm also critical of other breeds also that are following the Angus trend of breeding by numbers and prefixes.

Yeah had a neighbor use an Absolute son, and his calves were pretty fast too. I have one cow in the herd that has EXT fairly close, her and all her daughters and granddaughters are a PIA to work. not any problems tagging calves but you get them in a corral and they will show you the weak spots... My grand experiment I bred her to SAF Connection in January of 2022, she had a heifer calf in October. I didnt notice that calf acting up at weaning. That would be a big improvement in the the deal, just being average to work. Weird thing old cow is halter broke and you can rub her in the pasture, but she is a load in a corral..

 

[Ky hills]

Yeah had a neighbor use an Absolute son, and his calves were pretty fast too. I have one cow in the herd that has EXT fairly close, her and all her daughters and granddaughters are a PIA to work. not any problems tagging calves but you get them in a corral and they will show you the weak spots... My grand experiment I bred her to SAF Connection in January of 2022, she had a heifer calf in October. I didnt notice that calf acting up at weaning. That would be a big improvement in the the deal, just being average to work. Weird thing old cow is halter broke and you can rub her in the pasture, but she is a load in a corral..

SAF Connection is one of the bulls I would have like to have tried when we were AIing, but he wasn't available. Same thing with CC&7, I did purchase a daughter of his and she is still here at going on 11 yrs. She is out of a 6807 daughter, which doesn't help in the disposition dept. but she is overall good but a little standoffish at times. We used Hoover Dam 3 years via AI, and also have an 11 year old daughter of his left. I would have liked to have retained more daughters from him, but didn't.
PA Power Tool 9108, has been a good disposition bull for us too. I started retaining some sons and grandsons of his, and have been well pleased with them and what they sire including disposition.

 

[Ebenezer]

If the AU EBVs are based on controlled monitoring of 2000 offspring, that is certainly a step ahead of using unproven US bulls bought from the favorite herds or the most widely advertised herds in the AAA. But it would depend on who is able to evaluate and judge the 2000. Roy made a career buying GAR bulls from a long observation because of some reason that always picking sound bulls, it seems. The problem with the current US system of EPDs are not the EPDs themselves but the other culling type problems that semen sellers, corporate or private, do not cull for prior to the purchase and collection of bulls. I think that the most defects were not fully disclosed soon enough because there was protection of bulls and a few breeders who were modern and had leading EPDs.

The newest EPDs prove that as they concentrated on carcass and performance too much and now the hottest EPDs to chase are now feet, hair and $M. What is funny is that the current top $M bull is high performance and adds a fair amount of MW. So that train has run off of the tracks.

I wish that they had an EPD for swayback.

As always, the enemy is within. I honestly do not think that EPDs are used as much to improve cattle as to sell cattle. That is the real problem.

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

My Absolute calves were calm, my SAV PRIORITY daughter was gentle and calm but her calves were not!!

 

[Ky hills]

My Absolute calves were calm, my SAV PRIORITY daughter was gentle and calm but her calves were not!!

I had two daughters of SAV Final Answer.
Surprisingly, the one that was out of a daughter of SAV Net Worth was calm and good natured as were her calves. The other was bred very much like the Connealy Capitalist bull. She was from the same sire and maternal grandsire. She was a 1800+ lb he77 cat when she had a new calf or was confined. She was otherwise calm and would come in with the other cows and seemed to not have much of a flight zone unless trying to work her, but like daily feeding in the winter she was fine. Her calves were all sold at weaning as feeders because they were much worse than she was.

 

[billyB]

Try a wagyu bull.

 

[Warren Allison]

I had two daughters of SAV Final Answer.
Surprisingly, the one that was out of a daughter of SAV Net Worth was calm and good natured as were her calves. The other was bred very much like the Connealy Capitalist bull. She was from the same sire and maternal grandsire. She was a 1800+ lb he77 cat when she had a new calf or was confined. She was otherwise calm and would come in with the other cows and seemed to not have much of a flight zone unless trying to work her, but like daily feeding in the winter she was fine. Her calves were all sold at weaning as feeders because they were much worse than she was.

Took a horse to Clay yesterday, who was helping a man work his cows this week. It was so hot, he asked if he could borrow Smoke, and rotate him and his horse throughout the day. This man he is helping has 150 acres up in the NW corner of Ga. He has 35 head of reg Chi-Angus cows. All are homozygous for blqck and polled, They are anywhere from 50% to 70% Chianina, so at the most, they are only 1/2 Angus. He has 35 reg. black Simm cows, homo for black and polled as well. He AI's the Chi-Angus cows to black Simm bulls, and the black Simm cows to Chi-Angus bulls. Damn, you ought to see these calves! Born in January, and they will be selling the steers in July, But , the reason I am posting this is , he told me something pertaining to this subject about disposition. The Chi-Ang cows have yellow tags and the Simms have blue, but Clay said at calving time, you don't need tags to tell them apart. He said that about 30 of the 35 Chi-Ang cows will eat you alive over their new calves. But he said none of the Simms get aggressive with new calves. He said the Simms might act a little anxious...ust stand there snorting a little, mooing a little while you work their calf. But he said the Ch-Angus get slobber-slinging, tounge- out bellowing MAD, and come at yopu with murder in their hearts, until you finish with the calf and turn it loose. Now yesterday, with all of the calves over 5 months old, you could walk among them, even touch some of them, same as you could the Simms.
I think it is well -known by all of us, that Angus can be holy terrors with a new calf for a week or two, but I wonder if a lot of it is maybe learned behaviour? He sells his steers at weaning, but keeps the heifers to sell at 12-14 months old for replacements. If one gets to be 16 months and hasn't sold, he keeps it and breeds it to a BWF beefmaster bull he owns. He had 7 of these yesterday with April calves...some 1st calf and I think two 2nd calfers. I took them and dropped them off at Calhoun last night., to be sold as pairs today. Now, all of these heifers are 1/2 Chi-Ang and 1/2 Simm. But, he said the ones out of the chi-Ang cows were just as aggressive as their dams with the new calves, and the ones out of the Simm cows were just as docile as their mommas are. Is it possible that this is something they picked up from momma their 1st few weeks of life?