Some thoughts on Certified Angus Beef

[Ky hills]

Took a horse to Clay yesterday, who was helping a man work his cows this week. It was so hot, he asked if he could borrow Smoke, and rotate him and his horse throughout the day. This man he is helping has 150 acres up in the NW corner of Ga. He has 35 head of reg Chi-Angus cows. All are homozygous for blqck and polled, They are anywhere from 50% to 70% Chianina, so at the most, they are only 1/2 Angus. He has 35 reg. black Simm cows, homo for black and polled as well. He AI's the Chi-Angus cows to black Simm bulls, and the black Simm cows to Chi-Angus bulls. Damn, you ought to see these calves! Born in January, and they will be selling the steers in July, But , the reason I am posting this is , he told me something pertaining to this subject about disposition. The Chi-Ang cows have yellow tags and the Simms have blue, but Clay said at calving time, you don't need tags to tell them apart. He said that about 30 of the 35 Chi-Ang cows will eat you alive over their new calves. But he said none of the Simms get aggressive with new calves. He said the Simms might act a little anxious...ust stand there snorting a little, mooing a little while you work their calf. But he said the Ch-Angus get slobber-slinging, tounge- out bellowing MAD, and come at yopu with murder in their hearts, until you finish with the calf and turn it loose. Now yesterday, with all of the calves over 5 months old, you could walk among them, even touch some of them, same as you could the Simms.
I think it is well -known by all of us, that Angus can be holy terrors with a new calf for a week or two, but I wonder if a lot of it is maybe learned behaviour? He sells his steers at weaning, but keeps the heifers to sell at 12-14 months old for replacements. If one gets to be 16 months and hasn't sold, he keeps it and breeds it to a BWF beefmaster bull he owns. He had 7 of these yesterday with April calves...some 1st calf and I think two 2nd calfers. I took them and dropped them off at Calhoun last night., to be sold as pairs today. Now, all of these heifers are 1/2 Chi-Ang and 1/2 Simm. But, he said the ones out of the chi-Ang cows were just as aggressive as their dams with the new calves, and the ones out of the Simm cows were just as docile as their mommas are. Is it possible that this is something they picked up from momma their 1st few weeks of life?

Yes, I think they will have it from the cows both genetically and environmentally through the learned behavior of the cows. If the cows get fired up then calves pick up on that too.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Warren - absolutely. Like Ky Hills said, environment and genetics. For those reasons - the COW has more influence on most of the temperament of a calf AND birth weight, etc.

 

[Warren Allison]

Warren - absolutely. Like Ky Hills said, environment and genetics. For those reasons - the COW has more influence on most of the temperament of a calf AND birth weight, etc.

This man has not introduced any new blood, or new cows, to his herds..both Chi-Angis and Simm, since he started this in 2009. What he does, is when one of the cows hits 10 yrs old, he will AI them to the same-breed bull he is using on the others, Like the Chi-Ang, when one reaches 10 he will AI her with the semen he is using on the Sim herd, and vice versa. If she has a heifer he registers it, keeps it, and breeds that cow back Simm every year til that heifer is 2 yrs old. If she has a bull calf, he will register it, advertise it for sale, and breed her again to the Chi-Ang bulls. If that cow has another bull , he will order sexed semen to breed her as a 12 yr old. He has 5 out of the 35, that were not overly aggressive with their new calves.. No more than say....a Hereford. Or the Simm cows. I asked him if he had ever had a docile one like those, have a heifer calf that grew up to be an aggressive momma. He said he didn't know yet. 2 of the 5 will be 10 this year, and he is AIing them with sexed semen this week., He said as best he can recall, the dams of those 5 were docile, too. I guess all the cows, CHi-ANg and Simm, are all daughters of the original 70 now.

I just don't see how 10 days of exposure to an an enviroment....your first 10 days of life....would shape an adult behaviour. Yes, it is easier to pick up a Cape Buffalo calf than an Angus mother's new calf. But after about 10 days or so, Angus are as gentle about their calves as any other cow. Actually, that heifer probably saw that aggression once. (when they came to tag her as a new born) in her life, those 1st 10 days. Maybe once or twice more in the case of dogs or coyotes.

Ok, I heen sitting here an hour trying to think of what I was gonna say. However, my arthritis is really bad today and I took maybe a little too much edibles! I keep losing my train of thought! To be continued.

 

[Ky hills]

To add on to what I said earlier about genetics and environment I believe can manifest to varying degrees depending on the individual and variables in the environment and or possibly just how the genes line up and come down.
I've had a few calves that were on cows for a a week or so and noticed thy weren't getting enough milk or for whatever reason. Sometimes those calves never settle down to the point where you can get close to them outside of them taking a bottle. Sone do some and some don't.
I believe that calves learn a lot early on from the cows. If some cows with new borns that are up and going see you they take off with their calves. That is bound to leave an impression on that calf. Then with several kinds of predators around the cows are on high alert even when we are not in the field around them.
As pertaining to the genetic factor, they can get it likely both or either or environmental and genetically from the cow.
The bull can also play a role, in the genetic expression disposition of his calves.
I mentioned earlier about an AI bull I used several years ago. Of the heifers I bred him to, one was very docile and one was average not bad but a little flighty when it came to handling.
Both calves were crazy.
I bought a bred registered Hereford heifer several years ago. She was fairly calm and nothing out of the ordinary disposition wise. The calf that she had was to me almost proof of red and white Simmentals being used somewhere back in the Hereford breed. That calf looked more like a Sim and had more of a continental breed temperament too.
He was a little standoffish, but not bad at all around us. If he saw somebody else he acted like a bucking bull in a rodeo spinning around and throwing his head up.
He was a real good bull, good growthy larger framed offspring. The issue was that a pretty good percentage of his calves were crazy wild purebred Herefords included.
One of the craziest was a purebred Hereford #7 heifer that we retained, she was always a little skittish but like her sire she got worse with time. Her first calf was a heifer by our registered Angus herd bull. I thought that the calf would be more of a problem and figured on selling her at weaning. When we would go out on the SxS to check the cattle and as usual #7 would see us in the distance and take off from two hills away while the rest of cattle you could drive right by.
One evening we saw her and her calf then about close to weaning age standing together while going down the road. Pulled into the field and noticed #7 taking off like a bat out of heck, but her calf just stood her ground looking around just as if to say what was that all about.
After that I softened my stance on her calf. The calf is not a pet by any stretch but isn't overly flighty. I think the calves from that Angus bull are much better tempered, than most bulls we have had.
They are larger framed females and still some are apt to kick and because they are fairly tall they can whip around and kick pretty high, but generally not an unexpected thing when working through them.
Our current senior bull is a 3/4 Angus and is a son of that Angus bull, his mother is out of a registered Angus cow and the aforementioned flighty Hereford bull.
The calves by that 3/4 bull are mostly even calmer than those of his sire, but on occasion when mated to another descendant of that Hereford bull, the crazy can come though again.

 

[Brute 23]

I have put 2 different bulls on the exact same cows. The cows were were pretty easy going. One very flighty with questionable temperament and one super chill. Their calves reflected their temperament. I even went so far to move the cows bred to the questionable bull to another property. They never saw their sire. They were still pretty wild. They were slightly better so I took a chance on them. They ended up being culled later.

It was a good lesson and I'm a lot more picky about bulls.

 

[Warren Allison]

He sells his steers at weaning, but keeps the heifers to sell at 12-14 months old for replacements. If one gets to be 16 months and hasn't sold, he keeps it and breeds it to a BWF beefmaster bull he owns. He had 7 of these yesterday with April calves...some 1st calf and I think two 2nd calfers. I took them and dropped them off at Calhoun last night., to be sold as pairs today. Now, all of these heifers are 1/2 Chi-Ang and 1/2 Simm. But, he said the ones out of the chi-Ang cows were just as aggressive as their dams with the new calves, and the ones out of the Simm cows were just as docile as their mommas are. Is it possible that this is something they picked up from momma their 1st few weeks of life?

So, they didn't go through the sale. Someone who was there when I was unloading was really interested in this load. I had given him the owner's number because he wanted to see about just out right buying them and not running them through the sale. he kept getting a voicemail, and after I had been there about an hour, I just unloaded , left the info book the man sent with them with the barn owner and went on home. Apparently, the man finally called the dude back, and they made a deal. The man gave him $3k a pair, ( actually it was a 3 n 1 deal) and took care of the sale barn fees. I didn't know it til Clay called me Thursday morning. They had 2 that were 16 months old in April, and they have been running with the bull since then. The man came up there Thursday morning to buy those two, and ended up buying the bull too. I mean, these were as nice a commercial cows as I have ever seen. I have seen some nearly as good maybe, posted on CT, but none this good!

This man knows how to market. He had given me a stack of books, ,little 3 ring binders, Those about maybe an inch thick and rings the size of a nickel? They had a clear plastic pocket on front for a cover page, and he had a pic of that bull and his name on it., Inside the front cover pocket, he had a copy of the bull's reg. papers, and an info page with the bull's bw, ww, and some other weight....maybe yearling? His vet records papers, vaccinations, worming etc, too. Each cow had one of those clear plastic inset pages you can buy for the 3 ring binders. It had a copy of her parents' CHi-Ang and Simm papers , her birthdate, bw and ww, her vet records, and the dates she was exposed, the calf's birthdate, bw,, sex. Those cows have green ear tags (he uses blue on his Simms and yellow on his Chi-Ang, so the half and half get green). Makes sense. These cows have ear tag numbers beginning with either SC or CS, depending on the sire. The Simm x Chi-ang get SC numbers, and the CHi -Ang x Simm get CS numbers. The calves had the same ear tag numbers as their mommas. He had given me 10 or 12 of these books (I guess however many comes in a package at Office Depot) to give to the sale barn management,. They were gonna put a couple in the office, a couple in the cafe, one in the auctioneer's booth , and the rest on the front row of seats, for people to look at. They were going to get the auctioneer to announce every once in a while this group that was coming up later, and tell them where they could find these books, and what pen they were in in back of the barn. I didn't see the need for the bull info or the calf info, as these are obvious terminal crosses. I wouldn't think anyone would want to use those 1/2 BM heifers as replacements. But I may be wrong. Maybe there is a 4th breed to cross on them ,that would still produce some hybrid vigor, so I guess it didn't hurt to include this info. It didn't cost anything to add it except the cost per copy. I doubt those little binders were $1 each when bought in bulk like that. Pretty smart marketing tactic, I think. The man that bought them, was first attracted to them when he saw them in my trailer waiting in line. He asked me what they were...he thought they were Simangus or black Simms. I got one of the books out to show him what they were, and explained the owner's program, etc, He said that like most people, he was hesitant on buying sale barn cows for his herd, but he said : "Damn, everything you need to know about them is right here. Dunno how you could know more if you raised them yourself. It is obvious these are NOT culls" He has Simm and Simm Ang cows and uses Brangus bulls, so these cows ought to fit right in. Probably won't get as much hetarosis as with the BM bull, though, but still ought to be bad-ass calves.

 

[50/50Farms]

So, they didn't go through the sale. Someone who was there when I was unloading was really interested in this load. I had given him the owner's number because he wanted to see about just out right buying them and not running them through the sale. he kept getting a voicemail, and after I had been there about an hour, I just unloaded , left the info book the man sent with them with the barn owner and went on home. Apparently, the man finally called the dude back, and they made a deal. The man gave him $3k a pair, ( actually it was a 3 n 1 deal) and took care of the sale barn fees. I didn't know it til Clay called me Thursday morning. They had 2 that were 16 months old in April, and they have been running with the bull since then. The man came up there Thursday morning to buy those two, and ended up buying the bull too. I mean, these were as nice a commercial cows as I have ever seen. I have seen some nearly as good maybe, posted on CT, but none this good!

This man knows how to market. He had given me a stack of books, ,little 3 ring binders, Those about maybe an inch thick and rings the size of a nickel? They had a clear plastic pocket on front for a cover page, and he had a pic of that bull and his name on it., Inside the front cover pocket, he had a copy of the bull's reg. papers, and an info page with the bull's bw, ww, and some other weight....maybe yearling? His vet records papers, vaccinations, worming etc, too. Each cow had one of those clear plastic inset pages you can buy for the 3 ring binders. It had a copy of her parents' CHi-Ang and Simm paperers , her birthdate, bw and ww, her vet records, and the dates she was exposed, the calf's birthdate, bw,, sex. Those cows have green ear tags (he uses blue on his Simms and yellow on his Chi-Ag, so the half and half get green). Makes sense. These cows have ear tag numbers beginning with either SC or CS, depending on the sire. The Simm x Chi-ang get SC numbers, and the CHi -Ang x Simm get CS numbers. The calves had the same ear tag numbers as their mommas. He had given me 10 or 12 of these books (I guess however many comes in a package at Office Depot) to give to the sale barn management,. They were gonna put a couple in the office, a couple in the cafe, one in the auctioneer's booth , and the rest on the front row of seats, for people to look at. They were going to get the auctioneer to announce every once in a while this group that was coming up later, and tell them where they could find these books, and what pen they were in in back of the barn. I didn't see the need for the bull info or the calf info, as these are obvious terminal crosses. I wouldn't think anyone would want to use those 1/2 BM heifers as replacements. But I may be wrong. Maybe there is a 4th breed to cross on them ,that would still produce some hybrid vigor, so I guess it didn't hurt to include this info. It didn't cost anything to add it except the cost per copy. I doubt those little binders were $1 each when bought in bulk like that. Pretty smart marketing tactic, I think. The man that bought them, was first attracted to them when he saw them in my trailer waiting in line. He asked me what they were...he thought they were Simangus or black Simms. I got one of the books out to show him what they were, and explained the owner's program, etc, He said that like most people, he was hesitant on buying sale barn cows for his herd, but he said : "Damn, everything you need to know about them is right here. Dunno how you could know more if you raised them yourself. It is obvious these are NOT culls" He has Simm and Simm Ang cows and uses Brangus bulls, so these cows ought to fit right in. Probably won't get as much hetarosis as with the BM bull, though, but still ought to be bad-ass calves.

You old hoodwinker you, you couldn't stay out of the cattle business for 10 minutes. You just quit roping and throwing them on a commercial scale of your own is all. Three weeks ago I was on a job site calling you to check on you and you were finished besides ropers, now you're hauling for folks and taking them to the sale and looking at bottle calves for Zeke. I knew you weren't done in full. You might hate those fleabags, but without them you wouldn't be a cowboy and you ain't ready to quit being one.

 

[Warren Allison]

You old hoodwinker you, you couldn't stay out of the cattle business for 10 minutes. You just quit roping and throwing them on a commercial scale of your own is all. Three weeks ago I was on a job site calling you to check on you and you were finished besides ropers, now you're hauling for folks and taking them to the sale and looking at bottle calves for Zeke. I knew you weren't done in full. You might hate those fleabags, but without them you wouldn't be a cowboy and you ain't ready to quit being one.

No, I just carried a horse up to Clay, and hung around a while watching what they were doing, AI-ing cattle. I pass right by the sale barn on my way home, so I volunteered to drop those cows off., Left my trailer with Clay and pulled the cows in a 32' stock trailer. Man, if I was gonna get back in it, Thursday at that sale would have been the time to do it. Someone brought a dozen Corr heifers in. Another guy had 2 LH cows with Angus calves. Several little groups of Brahmas. Two Brahma bulls,,.one was black with some white spotting. There were 10 black baldies there bred to him. 2 had brand new calves, and the other 8 were about to pop any minute,. I bet they have all calved by now. There was a pen with 4 heifers...... a Br x Hols, 2 Br x jeresys, and a Br x LH in it, They were all marked with a 5 or a 6 on their side, but I never heard what they were bred to.

Scott bought Zeke a Hereford x Guernsey cow last week, that had just weaned her calf and a Holstein calf they had bought to put on her. The folks they got her from had not bred her back, so he; is going top take her to see the red brahma that we bred Gail to. But M NO...I will NOT fool with any bottle calves! Other than maybe hauling one down there to Zeke.

 

[50/50Farms]

No, I just carried a horse up to Clay, and hung around a while watching what they were doing, AI-ing cattle. I pass right by the sale barn on my way home, so I volunteered to drop those cows off., Left my trailer with Clay and pulled the cows in a 32' stock trailer. Man, if I was gonna get back in it, Thursday at that sale would have been the time to do it. Someone brought a dozen Corr heifers in. Another guy had 2 LH cows with Angus calves. Several little groups of Brahmas. Two Brahma bulls,,.one was black with some white spotting. There were 10 black baldies there bred to him. 2 had brand new calves, and the other 8 were about to pop any minute,. I bet they have all calved by now. There was a pen with 4 heifers...... a Br x Hols, 2 Br x jeresys, and a Br x LH in it, They were all marked with a 5 or a 6 on their side, but I never heard what they were bred to.

Scott bought Zeke a Hereford x Guernsey cow last week, that had just weaned her calf and a Holstein calf they had bought to put on her. The folks they got her from had not bred her back, so he; is going top take her to see the red brahma that we bred Gail to. But M NO...I will NOT fool with any bottle calves! Other than maybe hauling one down there to Zeke.

When I can, wanna meet up at the horse sale up near Anniston?

 

[Warren Allison]

When I can, wanna meet up at the horse sale up near Anniston?

Sure can. What day is it on?

 

[Warren Allison]

q

 

[50/50Farms]

Sure can. What day is it on?

I'll see when the next one is that I can make it to, I'll get up with ya. I've got your number and such.

 

[Sthrncwboy]

So, they didn't go through the sale. Someone who was there when I was unloading was really interested in this load. I had given him the owner's number because he wanted to see about just out right buying them and not running them through the sale. he kept getting a voicemail, and after I had been there about an hour, I just unloaded , left the info book the man sent with them with the barn owner and went on home. Apparently, the man finally called the dude back, and they made a deal. The man gave him $3k a pair, ( actually it was a 3 n 1 deal) and took care of the sale barn fees. I didn't know it til Clay called me Thursday morning. They had 2 that were 16 months old in April, and they have been running with the bull since then. The man came up there Thursday morning to buy those two, and ended up buying the bull too. I mean, these were as nice a commercial cows as I have ever seen. I have seen some nearly as good maybe, posted on CT, but none this good!

Yep, he really liked that bull. and I think he started thinking like you, and figured he'd get more hybrid vigor using the Beefmaster rather than one of his Brangus. Mr, Cole has sold 25 of the 36 heifers we weaned this week, ( The buyer come and got them yesterday) and he said if he ever had any of the 11 left at 16 mos old, he'd just AI them, so he sold that bull too. Jones said he might come back and get them, if he can find or fix a place to keep them away from his bulls for a year.

 

[Warren Allison]

Yep, he really liked that bull. and I think he started thinking like you, and figured he'd get more hybrid vigor using the Beefmaster rather than one of his Brangus. Mr, Cole has sold 25 of the 36 heifers we weaned this week, ( The buyer come and got them yesterday) and he said if he ever had any of the 11 left at 16 mos old, he'd just AI them, so he sold that bull too. Jones said he might come back and get them, if he can find or fix a place to keep them away from his bulls for a year.

Brother, I tell you what...I have never in my life seen better cows than these, No where, no time. Have seen a few as good or close to it, but never any better, Of any breed or cross. Did you happen to, by any chance, take some pictures those 5 days you were up there?

 

[Lucky_P]

Try a wagyu bull.

My friend, the late, great Dr. Tom Howard, who was formerly the WI State Veterinarian, worked at ABS-Colorado, from 1974-1991... there were Wagyu bulls there even back in those days. He said they were the meanest things walking.

 

[billyB]

My friend, the late, great Dr. Tom Howard, who was formerly the WI State Veterinarian, worked at ABS-Colorado, from 1974-1991... there were Wagyu bulls there even back in those days. He said they were the meanest things walking.

That's very contrary to most experiences. Across all the farms I know of with wagyu the consensus is that they are the gentlest and safest to have on your farm. I know lots of them since I've been in beef for a long time. Just turned 3/4 of a century old!
Have you ever been around or seen one?

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

Our Japanese black and Akaushi are very docile and easy to work.
Before I got into Wagyu cattle we had Angus and I can tell you for a fact that the Wagyu are easier to work and more docile than all the breeds I have been around.
Obviously it depends on how much you're around the cattle. I have found that most all cattle are easier to work the more that you're around them.
That is one of the big advantages of having a smaller herd.