Which Angus bull to use ?

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I'm a moron, but am smart enough to know a cow/bulls back foot should cover their front foot's tracks when walking. Why do these high dollar outfits not follow one of the basic principles of the selection process?
 
BFE said:
I'm a moron, but am smart enough to know a cow/bulls back foot should cover their front foot's tracks when walking. Why do these high dollar outfits not follow one of the basic principles of the selection process?
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Sounds simple right? Not as easy in practice. Ellingson's have done a really good job of breeding cattle with exceptional hoof shape and quality. The structure you are being being critical of is cattle walking on frozen ground. Yes what you are seeing is real but not as bad as video may look. The Angus breed has real problems with foot shape and hoof structure the epds are helping but it is going to take several generations to correct. Finding a good footed, deep healed Angus bull is a find in todays world.
 
W.B. said:
Sounds simple right? Not as easy in practice. Ellingson's have done a really good job of breeding cattle with exceptional hoof shape and quality. The structure you are being being critical of is cattle walking on frozen ground. Yes what you are seeing is real but not as bad as video may look. The Angus breed has real problems with foot shape and hoof structure the epds are helping but it is going to take several generations to correct. Finding a good footed, deep healed Angus bull is a find in todays world.
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I doubt that frozen ground is the issue on free and proper travel of gait. There are two extremes: bound up animals from improper structure or sometimes it seems to be from excess muscling or being over conditioned. The other extreme is when cattle swing largely from the hip and there is a still leg appearance.

Not you but a quote from another post : "So you always want a good or great scrotal number as it reflects on the heifers." If you do a sire search with min HP of 18 and max SC of 0, you get two bulls: Tahoe and Sitz Incentive - both have a lot of use in the breed. (A lot of folks are not paying attention!) With HP min of 18 and SC min of 0, you get 94 bulls. With HP max of 4 and SC min of 0 you get 56 bulls. With HP max of 4 and SC max at 0 you get 17 bulls. I do not see a strong correlation. The old study(s) before HP merely said that a larger SC would have daughters to come into heat a few days earlier. increasing the ration can do the same.
 
W.B. said:
Sounds simple right? Not as easy in practice. Ellingson's have done a really good job of breeding cattle with exceptional hoof shape and quality. The structure you are being being critical of is cattle walking on frozen ground. Yes what you are seeing is real but not as bad as video may look. The Angus breed has real problems with foot shape and hoof structure the epds are helping but it is going to take several generations to correct. Finding a good footed, deep healed Angus bull is a find in todays world.
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Ellingson Homegrown is a bull we have used and he sure stamps a nice foot on the offspring that have hit the ground here. It seems Ellingson does make foot structure a priority in their program. It is nice to see the Angus breed "quantify" the foot. Imo "poor" feet doesn't leave you with much longevity or foundation to build on. It is one of our top identifiers.
 
Chuckie said:
Richnm, that is a good thing you did. Jameson is a new bull. I have been watching him for a while trying to figure out how he would turn out. I had my eyes on one calf of his, and that was all I knew about. Tell me where you check a bull's DNA or find information that we are speaking of. I went back to see if his numbers had dropped, and they were still high. But I did not know about any other calves besides the one I watched.
Do tell me where I can find how his numbers are running at this point. Is there such a site?

I just had company and they just left, and I want to write more here as EPD's are so interesting to me, and I enjoy the discussion as there is much to learn.

I noticed that the bullbarn EPD Comparisons tool is still out of order. I wonder if they are tweaking it again. I write them when it goes off. I just did not do it today. That is such a quick tool to use that I wear it out.

I personally would not want to lose any of her EPD's. I was thinking today about how so often, a very great cow is responsible for the bull and the heifers produced. Just like when we were talking to @Nesikep, he had that cow that keeps giving him these great heifers. I too have a cow that was named Sydgen Rachel, she was out of a Rachel cow and Sydgen Ally. And every heifer she had was outstanding, and each heifer she had was out standing, and now so many years later, her heifers are still giving us the top calves. So sometimes you can trace a great cow that throws bulls that will create your best calves, just like her. I found myself trying to track down a cow that had great calves, and then had to put it down.
Let me look at Prolific's EPD's right quick..

I wanted to say something about some really good bulls that come on the market, they advertise them heavily and they look great, then they disappear the following year. One of the bulls that I looked up I found discussed here was Sydgen Fate 0028. That is one heck of a bull, but, I don't like his back legs. That is what is the problem so often. But he is huge and muscular and his numbers would do your cow great, and not pull her down. I like his conformation all the way down till it gets to his back legs. What a shame!!

HP is heifer pregnancy. Before they came out with that number, the tool we used to determine the fertility and early fertility of a heifer was the scrotal size of the bull. When an embryo is developing, the testicles become ovaries in it is a heifer, or vice versa, if it is to be a bull, the ovaries then drop to be testicles. Not saying that they were either one in the beginning, but saying that is the same charting Ha-ha What and how that animal becomes male or female. So you always want a good or great scrotal number as it reflects on the heifers. Sydgen Fate 0028, his scrotal number is 2.03. I was going to him to see if he could pull that up on your cow, then I remembered his back legs. But as I look at Sydgen Fate's HP # is is only a 10.4??? And I wonder, what are they basing that on? I guess over the years of when someone decided to breed their heifer? I thought for sure that Scotal would be a part of deciding the fertileness. As I learned about EPD's early in the beginning, I always would just buy cows with high scrotal marks because it was an indicator of fertility and raising herd bulls.

Profoud....

His numbers are not bad at all. As of today, they don't pay you for RE or Marb when it goes across the scale. Unless you get into freezer beef. But those numbers and not awful.
If you like the looks of Profound, then he might be a good bull. I just don't know anything about him.
On Bullbarn, they have a category for videos. They have a video of Prolific, but not for Profound. I am not sure of the strength of Profounds back legs as he has them stretched out straight behind him. Let me locate a video if I can find one...... He is a really good looking bull, but they will not show him walking. Let me keep digging....

I had to come back and edit this, as this is a son of Profound 8155. But the leg set on 8155 is the same if not straighter. He will be a short stepper like below. Now to find the 8155 video, and they do not want to show it.

Walking below, this is what I don't care for. When he travels, there is more movement of his leg behind him that what you see going forward. I want my bull to step further forward as he must keep up with a cow when breeding. He has to move with her. This bull takes very short steps forward, but you will see more length of his leg trailing than going forward. Imagine a race horse that tried to run a race. How far they must be able to move their rear legs forward to keep propelling forward. I know he is not a horse, but the mechanics are the same. He must be athletic to be a long breeder. If I have a good bull with great legs, he will never go to the sale barn. He will always go to another herd. But a weak rear legged bull his life will be short.



I am always looking at the bulls and going over their numbers and if I see something else I will say something.
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Show us a bull with a perfect step I would like to see it. Might make it easier for some of us to see what you're talking about. I can't see enough of a problem to believe this is gonna affect him keeping up with cows in breeding season. That time of year bulls usually have an extra skip in there step anyway.
 
I went to youtube and started searching. I do not know this farm. I know nothing of this Angus breeding, but this is what we should be seeing in our bulls. But I would purchase the mechanics in the rear end of this bull. I don't even know if this is USA bull, maybe Canada.

I think everyone that raises a bull calf sells it as a herd bull. No matter what. I send more off than I let go to another farm beause something is creeping into our Angus cattle with hip and hock problems and I am afraid it was from all the culling they did and removed lines of cattle that carried the genetic of a defect. I saw so many great bulls disappear.

I hear the announcers blow the bulls up to be so grand at the sales when the breeder puts his name to the bull. I woud never have sent the bull through the ring. I know and I would be broke too.

See how the back leg bends and the hock is not frozen like an elbow. And that bull can get his foot in front of his penis or mid stomach. Some bulls are larger framed bulls with longer legs that I like, and the can get their legs further up. Shorter legged bulls cannot always reach their front foot, but, like these bulls, you see when you stop the video when he is striding out, see where his rear foot lands up to the center of his stomach. They will always have their legs trailing some behind them as that is part of the motion, but you don't want greater motion behind than in front.
 
Here is something important, they cut the grass very short so you can see the feet on these bulls because they are not hiding any problems. The sales people know where they will walk the bulls back and forth, and if they leave the grass tall, I sense a cupping motion at the foot or pastern, but can never see it. All sales should take that strip of grassed area, and go to the lowest setting to allow the buyer to see how that bull carries himself.

Also, there is no swaying of the hips in these bulls. Hip problems when they sway their hips and reminds me of a woman with a flowing dress trying to make the skirt sway back and forth. That hip just waves around. The bulls above almost look like they would hold up like a riding horse. And they are just slow walking. When they speed up, their legs go further up underneath them. Good bulls.

Australian Bulls. Ken, send me one please!
 
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I would never buy a bull that is sold in deep straw. It changes how they walk and adds motion that they don't have. I always suspect bad feet cupped angles and feet and weak pasterns. It is an old trick that they continue to use, and they give you these reasons why they use 3 feet of straw, It is muddy, or the ground was hard. I will not travel hundreds of miles to see what they are hiding in the deep straw.
 
gcreekrch said:
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BAR-E-L NATURAL LAW 52Y
gcreekrch, That is a good looking bull. That is what I like a bull is supposed to look like. They are getting away from that , and I don't like it. I like the huge shoulders and heartgirth, and the full rumps. The EPD's are tools for sure, as I scroll though the sites, with all the EPD's and those long weenie looking bulls with short legs, I always go to masculinity like your bull. They make the best cows!!
 
Selling bulls to people that have no idea what they are looking at goes to the old saying, "Buyer beware." They will always use the ground was frozen or muddy. Odd how when it freezes here, that none of my cattle start walking like that. They may walk slow and choose their steps, but nothing here looks like what they are trying to pass off on me. Now I don't trust that farm when they do that.

Everyone just go look at your cattle when the ground is frozen. Are they walking like they have cupped deformed feet and pasterns? No completely different look. Not even close.

When it looks weird, that is because it is. And that is why I personally say, don't bring a bull in with that problem because he is going to effect your entire herd with his calves and your pocketbook. Just don't bring him home to your good cows.

And these auctions are so exciting and they pay good money to these Auctioneers that blow more smoke than a blown tractor engine over the most defective cattle. That is what they get paid to do. It is all about money.
 
@gcreekrch I refer to him as your bull because you brought him to everyone's attention. But if you have some of his sons, how did they turn out? When I like to see a bull in my pasture, he is the kind I like to look at. There is nothing much more beautiful than a big strong impressive bull.
 
Chuckie said:
@gcreekrch I refer to him as your bull because you brought him to everyone's attention. But if you have some of his sons, how did they turn out? When I like to see a bull in my pasture, he is the kind I like to look at. There is nothing much more beautiful than a big strong impressive bull.
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They look similar to him but our bulls don't get that big because of feed quality. A ton bull is big for us, most mature at 1850 to 1900.
 

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