Angus bull thoughts.

[gizmom]

76 bar
In answer to why, without research I honestly can't tell you. I can tell you they were in the herd at one time and now they aren't. Heck someone might have purchased them because as I said they look dang good. But to be able to tell you why at this point I just don't remember. I don't recall anything bad about the cows, I do recall not enough performance in the bulls, they just didn't weigh up with the rest of the bull calves and got culled because of it. It could have been the same for the heifers, but I don't put as much growth performance pressure on heifers as we do on the bulls. A smaller heifer that is deep and wide with good feet will usually get to stay to see how she develops. If I find an afternoon to comb back through the data I will try to find out what happened to the cows, I usually have pretty good notes. If she sold as a registered cow then I would say she was a nice cow, the ones that don't get sold as terminal.

edited: I went back in the records we used Krugerrand of Donamere 490 back in 97, 98 and 2000. Not much data low weaning weights and they went to town. Then used Jipsey Earl in 09 out of 8 calves one got to stay a bull the rest went to town at weaning. Going back to 97 and 98 made me realize I do a much better job now than I did back then on my records. I didn't have any notes just sold at weaning.

gizmom

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded, you've made a few references about using high DMI sires with no mention of RADG. I'm curious, do you prefer higher DMI sires and why?

I don't use high DMI sires, haven't for the past few years. In the past however we did use them, so we have high DMI in our older females.

RADG is important to me, hence why I like using SAV genetics. Crossing SAV with top DMI dams has resulted in progeny that is still above breed average for DMI, but I get a lift in RADG and $B.

I hear about fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I bred a low input type cow to SAV International 2020 and I got a very nice bull out of that mating. The bull is not like the sire or the dam, and he is Angus GS tested, he was a very pleasant surprise. Had we not done that mating how would we have known?

As for the fire and ice matings, why wouldn't a non tested bull to a non tested cow be fire and ice? I at least make an educated guess in sire selection, and I base it on genomic epds, not just phenotype.

Check out this bull calf I have right now

AAA 19193579

He's the one I'm talking about

I'll probably regret this but:
Strictly by the predicted numbers this bull will offer good growth and carcass traits. He also is scraping the bottom of the breed's barrel for CE, BW, and DOC. My question would be why you'd breed this cow to a bull that can only offer terminal type offspring? Couldn't you have used a more balanced bull and produced a more marketable calf?

I'm going to use this bull to produce steers. None of his male progeny will be sold intact. That is not the case for a lot of producers in KY where they sell grandsons and great grandsons of top sires.

As for the females, this bull's dam has put off some nice females, and I know that International has a great maternal family backing him, so I will probably keep them, and breed them AI first round to a sire like Bubs Southern Charm, or maybe Sydgen Enhance, or Bar R Jet Black.

After that the daughters of this bull will be used as recips or to produce more steers.

 

[CattleMan1920]

When you breed "fire & ice" - you may get offspring that are a blend - but you may get full sibs that are fire OR ice.

That's why producers steer what didn't work, and sell the others as bred heifers or use them for recips

 

[CattleMan1920]

fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

one half of the equation. Other half, nothing ventured, nothing lost. With low margins, the path to profit is via decreased losses.

Here is a question that seems to plague breeding choice discussions: Do you believe that every calf from a specific cow/specific bull cross inherits genes that are 50% cow and 50% bull? If they do, why are EPDs estimates rather than knowns? Why are they presented in ranges rather than stated as facts?

My opinion/experience is that you have no idea of inheritance %s. Real heterosis covers up the unknowns as dissimilar and dissimilar mixes create a stability while kin to kin matings allow a sorting of genes that can increase variance. So I see a gray area in within breed crosses with low %IBC matings while higher %IBC crosses with some proven prepotency can begin to create stability. Naw, I don't want things to get dull 'round here! ;-)

Ebenezer, with all due respect, and I say this because it may appear that I am always beating up on you, but how do you think interesting combinations have emerged in breeding? James Lingle experimented constantly, and you seem to respect his moves.

I'm nearly certain that if he had access to Angus GS or HD50K in his time, he would have used it extensively.

We are no longer in a time when we can "eyeball" a good bull, nor can we even begin to compute on a piece of paper the advances in genetic testing. Both HD50k and Angus GS are intensive tests that give a breeder a lot of info that cannot be compared with just looking at phenotype. The tests are against a rapidly growing contemporary group, they are becoming more and more accurate as the group of tested animals expands.

Stone Gate had a sale yesterday, the top bull was out of a Crook Mt. Really Windy sire. Here is the top selling bull's AAA number 18970637. He sold for $4k. He has no genomic test at this time.

[image]203[/image]
[image]204[/image]

If you go back through the pedigree, he does everything you seem to want in a bull. I'm sure he is a very good animal, but if he were offered in a sale where pounds matter, and growth is a big deal, I'm not sure he would fare well. His foot quality is probably very good, but his $B, CEM, and HP are not so great.

Compare him to our bull I posted earlier AAA 19193579 Here is a photo of him at 169 days, and his numbers. He is Angus GS tested. I watch this bull fill out every day. I know how his dam and granddam performed. I know SAV International 2020 is a great bull, and I know that this bull at 15 months is going to be doing a fine job for us here at Branded. I have his pedigree AND genetic tests to back him up. The Really Windy son will NOT have calves that look like this at 169 days based on my experience with bulls of similar genetic profiles. Not only will the weaning weights not compare, nor will the maternal traits or carcass traits.

But of course, he also won't be selling for $4k.

[image]206[/image]
[image]205[/image]

People put WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on CED and CEM. Angus are naturally calving ease animals. I just had another Elation daughter born two days ago, and she was from a HEIFER at that. When I spoke with Square B they told me that they would not use him on heifers, and that is what works for them. For us, we had no issues and the 87 pound daughter came out with no assistance, on to the next one! Our bull above will produce nice solid daughters with high HP scores, what's not to like?

 

[chicken farmer]

fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

one half of the equation. Other half, nothing ventured, nothing lost. With low margins, the path to profit is via decreased losses.

Here is a question that seems to plague breeding choice discussions: Do you believe that every calf from a specific cow/specific bull cross inherits genes that are 50% cow and 50% bull? If they do, why are EPDs estimates rather than knowns? Why are they presented in ranges rather than stated as facts?

My opinion/experience is that you have no idea of inheritance %s. Real heterosis covers up the unknowns as dissimilar and dissimilar mixes create a stability while kin to kin matings allow a sorting of genes that can increase variance. So I see a gray area in within breed crosses with low %IBC matings while higher %IBC crosses with some proven prepotency can begin to create stability. Naw, I don't want things to get dull 'round here! ;-)

Ebenezer, with all due respect, and I say this because it may appear that I am always beating up on you, but how do you think interesting combinations have emerged in breeding? James Lingle experimented constantly, and you seem to respect his moves.

I'm nearly certain that if he had access to Angus GS or HD50K in his time, he would have used it extensively.

We are no longer in a time when we can "eyeball" a good bull, nor can we even begin to compute on a piece of paper the advances in genetic testing. Both HD50k and Angus GS are intensive tests that give a breeder a lot of info that cannot be compared with just looking at phenotype. The tests are against a rapidly growing contemporary group, they are becoming more and more accurate as the group of tested animals expands.

Stone Gate had a sale yesterday, the top bull was out of a Crook Mt. Really Windy sire. Here is the top selling bull's AAA number 18970637. He sold for $4k. He has no genomic test at this time.

[image]203[/image]
[image]204[/image]

If you go back through the pedigree, he does everything you seem to want in a bull. I'm sure he is a very good animal, but if he were offered in a sale where pounds matter, and growth is a big deal, I'm not sure he would fare well. His foot quality is probably very good, but his $B, CEM, and HP are not so great.

Compare him to our bull I posted earlier AAA 19193579 Here is a photo of him at 169 days, and his numbers. He is Angus GS tested. I watch this bull fill out every day. I know how his dam and granddam performed. I know SAV International 2020 is a great bull, and I know that this bull at 15 months is going to be doing a fine job for us here at Branded. I have his pedigree AND genetic tests to back him up. The Really Windy son will NOT have calves that look like this at 169 days based on my experience with bulls of similar genetic profiles. Not only will the weaning weights not compare, nor will the maternal traits or carcass traits.

But of course, he also won't be selling for $4k.

[image]206[/image]
[image]205[/image]

People put WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on CED and CEM. Angus are naturally calving ease animals. I just had another Elation daughter born two days ago, and she was from a HEIFER at that. When I spoke with Square B they told me that they would not use him on heifers, and that is what works for them. For us, we had no issues and the 87 pound daughter came out with no assistance, on to the next one! Our bull above will produce nice solid daughters with high HP scores, what's not to like?

By keeping heifers out of bulls with low CEM, wouldn't you be breeding the natural calving ease out of the Angus breed.

 

[CattleMan1920]

By keeping heifers out of bulls with low CEM, wouldn't you be breeding the natural calving ease out of the Angus breed.

I personally don't think so, but I'm not suggesting people follow my lead. It's like the saying "don't try this at home"

I'm working on introducing certain traits that I see as important. CEM while important to many is not as important to me. Let me qualify why I say that. I spoke with someone the other day who checks on his cattle once per week, even during calving. I can completely understand why he would want to use a sire and have females in the herd with very high CED and CEM numbers.

That's not the case with me. I'm looking at the herd several times a day, in some form or function. If I have a heifer or cow that is having a calving issue, I deal with it in short order, by either doing it myself or calling the vet which is close to my farm.

Let me say this, and I think it will draw a lot of flack. I've used high CED CEM bulls and put them on high CED CEM dams and still had one or two a year that had to be pulled or the dam had a semi-rough delivery. I've also had negative CED CEM sires bred to negative CED CEM dams that popped that calf out with zero difficulties. I've bred a high CED bull to a high CED dam and got a 104-pound daughter once! How the heck did that happen? She didn't need to be pulled and turned out to be a really nice heifer who settled first try at 13 months to AI.

I happen to use sires like Elation and Harvestor, or President on heifers, but I'm not suggesting others do that.

Once you are past the heifer stage and you are dealing with cows. nearly any healthy cow should be able to calve out a 85-95 pound calf with zero issues. I've noticed that the older the cow, the calf nearly always plops out with no issues. I've never understood why producers are so heck bent on using low bw, extreme calving ease sires on mature cows. You are just going to end up with smaller framed heifers in my opinion.

With that said, I still understand that if someone is breeding a group of heifers and they will not be around for the calving, that it would make sense to go with a high CED CEM sire. If nothing else for that producer's sanity and piece of mind.

 

[cow pollinater]

I've bred a high CED bull to a high CED dam and got a 104-pound daughter once! How the heck did that happen?

Given your propensity to fire and ice matings and faith in epd's and genetic tests I'll bet I know exactly what happened. :nod:

 

[CreekAngus]

Branded, you've made a few references about using high DMI sires with no mention of RADG. I'm curious, do you prefer higher DMI sires and why?

I don't use high DMI sires, haven't for the past few years. In the past however we did use them, so we have high DMI in our older females.

RADG is important to me, hence why I like using SAV genetics. Crossing SAV with top DMI dams has resulted in progeny that is still above breed average for DMI, but I get a lift in RADG and $B.

I hear about fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I bred a low input type cow to SAV International 2020 and I got a very nice bull out of that mating. The bull is not like the sire or the dam, and he is Angus GS tested, he was a very pleasant surprise. Had we not done that mating how would we have known?

As for the fire and ice matings, why wouldn't a non tested bull to a non tested cow be fire and ice? I at least make an educated guess in sire selection, and I base it on genomic epds, not just phenotype.

Check out this bull calf I have right now

AAA 19193579

He's the one I'm talking about

I'll probably regret this but:
Strictly by the predicted numbers this bull will offer good growth and carcass traits. He also is scraping the bottom of the breed's barrel for CE, BW, and DOC. My question would be why you'd breed this cow to a bull that can only offer terminal type offspring? Couldn't you have used a more balanced bull and produced a more marketable calf?

I don't follow what SAV is doing there in ND, had no idea SAV International was a EPD disaster. I typically only follow three EPD traits, CED, BW and YH, this guy destroys two out of three. I don't mind a little birth weight, but my gosh, I don't want to spend my nights with an arm up a cow.

 

[CreekAngus]

By keeping heifers out of bulls with low CEM, wouldn't you be breeding the natural calving ease out of the Angus breed.

I personally don't think so, but I'm not suggesting people follow my lead. It's like the saying "don't try this at home"

I'm working on introducing certain traits that I see as important. CEM while important to many is not as important to me. Let me qualify why I say that. I spoke with someone the other day who checks on his cattle once per week, even during calving. I can completely understand why he would want to use a sire and have females in the herd with very high CED and CEM numbers.

That's not the case with me. I'm looking at the herd several times a day, in some form or function. If I have a heifer or cow that is having a calving issue, I deal with it in short order, by either doing it myself or calling the vet which is close to my farm.

Let me say this, and I think it will draw a lot of flack. I've used high CED CEM bulls and put them on high CED CEM dams and still had one or two a year that had to be pulled or the dam had a semi-rough delivery. I've also had negative CED CEM sires bred to negative CED CEM dams that popped that calf out with zero difficulties. I've bred a high CED bull to a high CED dam and got a 104-pound daughter once! How the heck did that happen? She didn't need to be pulled and turned out to be a really nice heifer who settled first try at 13 months to AI.

I happen to use sires like Elation and Harvestor, or President on heifers, but I'm not suggesting others do that.

Once you are past the heifer stage and you are dealing with cows. nearly any healthy cow should be able to calve out a 85-95 pound calf with zero issues. I've noticed that the older the cow, the calf nearly always plops out with no issues. I've never understood why producers are so heck bent on using low bw, extreme calving ease sires on mature cows. You are just going to end up with smaller framed heifers in my opinion.

With that said, I still understand that if someone is breeding a group of heifers and they will not be around for the calving, that it would make sense to go with a high CED CEM sire. If nothing else for that producer's sanity and piece of mind.

Hey, one of my dams popped a 110lb bull calf no assist, but no way I want that to happen again. I get what your doing if your only looking to produce replacements, but from my uneducated view, I would think you could find a better option than International to get the same thing done. But hey it's your herd and if this works for you by all means.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Hey, one of my dams popped a 110lb bull calf no assist, but no way I want that to happen again. I get what your doing if your only looking to produce replacements, but from my uneducated view, I would think you could find a better option than International to get the same thing done. But hey it's your herd and if this works for you by all means.

I don't think you have an "uneducated view". Your concern is valid.

International is not the only sire that I use, he is just one example that I spoke of above. But since we are on International, his sire Harvestor is a fantastic bull, ask anyone who has used him, and you would be hard pressed to find people that don't like his progeny. Next, read this about International's dam, it's one of the things, of many, that made him appealing to me.

His fifth-generation Pathfinder dam, who sold for $250,000 in the recent 2016 SAV sale, is breed icon SAV Emblynette 5483. She is a phenomenal producer with striking femininity, superb body type, impeccable udder quality and ideal foot structure. She has a weaning ratio of 104 on eight natural calves.



Why would that not be something you would want in a female?

Diet plays a big role in calf size too, in my opinion. I would say that a producer that is just feeding hay, and with decent grass would not see overly large calves from International.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I've bred a high CED bull to a high CED dam and got a 104-pound daughter once! How the heck did that happen?

Given your propensity to fire and ice matings and faith in epd's and genetic tests I'll bet I know exactly what happened. :nod:

Here is a "Fire and Ice" with some really good results.

He's 177 days old in this photo taken a day ago. He is way thicker than anything a low BW, high CED bull has produced for us. Notice his milk, and HP numbers

[image]208[/image]

If I got you worked up on "fire and ice" it was not intentional. There are PLENTY of people who play is very safe in the Angus business, nothing wrong with that. There is a huge market for extremely low birthweight, double digit calving ease sires, "safe bulls" so to say, and also a lot of people who will never breed anything outside of that criteria. I have no issues with them, it's just not how I do things. I've said it before, using low bw, high CED bulls on cows is like wearing a belt with suspenders.

Nothing wrong with forging your own path.

 

[mrvictordomino]

fire and ice matings, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

one half of the equation. Other half, nothing ventured, nothing lost. With low margins, the path to profit is via decreased losses.

Here is a question that seems to plague breeding choice discussions: Do you believe that every calf from a specific cow/specific bull cross inherits genes that are 50% cow and 50% bull? If they do, why are EPDs estimates rather than knowns? Why are they presented in ranges rather than stated as facts?

My opinion/experience is that you have no idea of inheritance %s. Real heterosis covers up the unknowns as dissimilar and dissimilar mixes create a stability while kin to kin matings allow a sorting of genes that can increase variance. So I see a gray area in within breed crosses with low %IBC matings while higher %IBC crosses with some proven prepotency can begin to create stability. Naw, I don't want things to get dull 'round here! ;-)

Finally some fresh air. A basic understanding of genotype, will give someone an understanding that when you bred A to B doesn't always equal = A+. You could end up with A-, B-, B+ or AB. Breeding a 7 frame to a 5 frame, doesn't result in a 6, could end up with another 7 or 5, most likely something in between, but rarely the 6 you think you were going to get.. This is why I don't breed by the numbers. Numbers assume if I breed a 80 ww to a 40 ww it will equal 60 ww. It doesn't work that way the progeny will reflect the most dominant genes. It doesn't matter if your a commercial guy or registered gal, you are looking for good animals that stamp their progeny with their dominant genes, hence why line breeding works so well...anyone who disagrees that line breeding doesn't work, please take the EXT influence out of your herd, probably won't have any cattle left, but please disagree with line breeding.

Two good posts here.

 

[Ebenezer]

how do you think interesting combinations have emerged in breeding?

Easy answer. Breed a lot of them and only keep the few extreme outliers. Always sort for bigger and better.

James Lingle experimented constantly, and you seem to respect his moves.

Not sure that I ever told you what I think about Jim Lingle. Jim Lingle used linebreeding or at least a closed round robin type breeding program to seek out extra growth. How do you think the 2019 sale offerings reflect his goals?

 

[CattleMan1920]

how do you think interesting combinations have emerged in breeding?

Easy answer. Breed a lot of them and only keep the few extreme outliers. Always sort for bigger and better.

James Lingle experimented constantly, and you seem to respect his moves.

Not sure that I ever told you what I think about Jim Lingle. Jim Lingle used linebreeding or at least a closed round robin type breeding program to seek out extra growth. How do you think the 2019 sale offerings reflect his goals?

Low input, using lots of grand sons and great grandsons.

If Lingle had the plethora of choices in sires today via AI and genomic testing, he could have accomplished his goals in a much shorter time frame.

He did not even have a smidgen of what breeders have access to today.

Linebred sires are probably more prolific than you may think in Kentucky. People don't want to buy a bull, they use a son on their whole herd, they breed to sisters, they get more cattle and keep the herd multiplying without having to spend on a bull. Good way to save money. Right? More like wrong. Nobody will speak of this, but I assure you it happens.

I see linebreeding as a tool that should be used VERY carefully. It's not for amateurs.

For me, I would prefer to use AI to get the traits I want.

The market is rarely going to reward you for your linebreeding prowess, look closely at the Stone Gate sale then look at the Boyd sale in a few days. Both operations have nice cattle, but compare the prices that the Connealy Confidence plus sons at Boyd's command versus a non AI sire from Stone Gate. It will be daylight and dark, financially speaking.

 

[Ebenezer]

how do you think interesting combinations have emerged in breeding?

Easy answer. Breed a lot of them and only keep the few extreme outliers. Always sort for bigger and better.

James Lingle experimented constantly, and you seem to respect his moves.

Not sure that I ever told you what I think about Jim Lingle. Jim Lingle used linebreeding or at least a closed round robin type breeding program to seek out extra growth. How do you think the 2019 sale offerings reflect his goals?

Low input, using lots of grand sons and great grandsons.

If Lingle had the plethora of choices in sires today via AI and genomic testing, he could have accomplished his goals in a much shorter time frame.

He did not even have a smidgen of what breeders have access to today.

Linebred sires are probably more prolific than you may think in Kentucky. People don't want to buy a bull, they use a son on their whole herd, they breed to sisters, they get more cattle and keep the herd multiplying without having to spend on a bull. Good way to save money. Right? More like wrong. Nobody will speak of this, but I assure you it happens.

I see linebreeding as a tool that should be used VERY carefully. It's not for amateurs.

For me, I would prefer to use AI to get the traits I want.

The market is rarely going to reward you for your linebreeding prowess, look closely at the Stone Gate sale then look at the Boyd sale in a few days. Both operations have nice cattle, but compare the prices that the Connealy Confidence plus sons at Boyd's command versus a non AI sire from Stone Gate. It will be daylight and dark, financially speaking.

Not even considering Boyd's or Stone Gate so no difference than other herds not being considered. They might have those sorry KY cattle from what I have been schooled about KY cattle here on CT. I do not believe it but that is what is written constantly. Since KY cattle sales are poor, prices are bad in KY, folks will not buy a decent bull in KY and commercial cattle folks are sorry in KY I expect to hear of them having dispersals in an adjoining state just any day now just to recoop losses incurred (where else) in KY. :shock: Not really.

Jim Lingle. Maybe you missed something. Or let's say that you DID miss something. He did not want US genetics and bought elsewhere because the US Angus folks were, for the most part, chasing another fad at that time. AAA tried to hurt him. You probably knew that? There were other folks in the US who had his sentiment and they prevailed. Later AAA slammed the door on them in another way. I know that you did not know that he used creep feed to get good gains early on. Now since you want to school me on what he would have done (he would not because he did not), please tell me his greatest regret of his breeding program that he never openly expressed.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I did not know him personally like you did, so I would not know his private thoughts. I gathered from reading his book that he sourced his females in the United States. I also got the feeling that he bought overseas because the selection here left much to be desired at the time. Maybe the U.S. was his Kentucky at the time?

As for Kentucky cattle, I assure you, I will not utter a word when I see prices on par with other states, when I see bull sales that really get me excited, and when Angus bull sales in Kentucky aren't 50% or more lower than most of the western and northern areas.

You ignore prices, but if Kentucky is getting so much less for their cattle what is the issue? Poor marketing? Buyers with no funds? Are the genetics not exciting enough for buyers with deep pockets? Nobody will address this, they just take everything personal. I'm talking business here folks, not personal feuds.

Our horse industry is second to none, why? People come from all over the world to Fasig Tipton with dump trucks of cash to buy horses, but cattle, not so much....why?

You can ABSOLUTELY buy a decent bull in Kentucky, if decent is all you desire. Many people are totally satisfied with decent everything, but there are some out there where decent just doesn't cut it.

I was thinking the other day, wouldn't it just be easier to rotate out the bulls that I already have, multiply the herd solely for numbers, steer everything and sell a few females here and there. Wouldn't that be easy? Yes, it would be really easy, but I wouldn't have jack sh.t as far as a herd goes in 10 years, I wouldn't have fresh genetics.

It takes a lot to go against the grain and not give in to what the crowd is dictating, because the crowd can be fickle and change overnight. You have to decide on something, be the best you can be, and stay with it over time, that is the only way to success from what I have seen.

 

[CattleMan1920]

2 questions brook hill.
How old are you and how do have so much time to post being as busy as you are?

First off, my age doesn't matter. I don't ask people how many cattle they own, how many acres they have, how long they have been married, and definitely not their age. It's a matter of courtesy.

Secondly, cause I own a smartphone and never sleep. I have systems in place on my operation that allow me to work smarter, not harder.

Most people would not have answered your question, you know that right?

 

[jehosofat]

2 questions brook hill.
How old are you and how do have so much time to post being as busy as you are?

First off, my age doesn't matter. I don't ask people how many cattle they own, how many acres they have, how long they have been married, and definitely not their age. It's a matter of courtesy.

Secondly, cause I own a smartphone and never sleep. I have systems in place on my operation that allow me to work smarter, not harder.

Most people would not have answered your question, you know that right?

I'm 52

 

[CattleMan1920]

2 questions brook hill.
How old are you and how do have so much time to post being as busy as you are?

First off, my age doesn't matter. I don't ask people how many cattle they own, how many acres they have, how long they have been married, and definitely not their age. It's a matter of courtesy.

Secondly, cause I own a smartphone and never sleep. I have systems in place on my operation that allow me to work smarter, not harder.

Most people would not have answered your question, you know that right?

I'm 52

You do realize that hackers read these forums right?

You just gave them a great deal of info right there. They now know you are 52, they know what state you are from, they know a lot more than you might think.

I would take down your age quickly if I were you.

 

[Ebenezer]

I wouldn't have fresh genetics.

Rito 707
Sitz traveler 8180
Bushwhacker
EXT
Paxton
In Focus
Gridmaker
598
Traveler

Your answer for the foundation of SAV being "old genetics"? They don't look too fresh to me.

Please define "new genetics" or is that a KY term when somebody quits inbreeding from multi-generational home raised bulls and goes to the stockyard and buys a $1000 cull bull to use as a herd bull? I consider such talk as Blue Smoke.