what to use on black baldies

[hillbillycwo]

Alacattleman,
Are you saying that it is better to use the LBW/CE Angus on the heifer? I get that as a good idea was just curious as to the benefit of not waiting one calf crop on those six heifers (or so) to potentially gain a year on the GV crossed calves and then breed straight terminal with the GV from there. I think I said that right. My plan is to increase the milk production in my momma calves and gain some size. Currently cows are around 1000 and would like to see them around 1200-1400 size. My herd is in good BCS and do well maintaining it while weaning around 475 at 6-7 months. Trying to get that statistic up some by working on the momma cows and breeding to a GV bull for the muscling and weight gains while maintaining reasonable CE/LBW.

Can you explain the statement of breeding out CE? Is that on the momma side or the bull side or both?

 

[alacattleman]

Alacattleman,
Are you saying that it is better to use the LBW/CE Angus on the heifer? I get that as a good idea was just curious as to the benefit of not waiting one calf crop on those six heifers (or so) to potentially gain a year on the GV crossed calves and then breed straight terminal with the GV from there. I think I said that right. My plan is to increase the milk production in my momma calves and gain some size. Currently cows are around 1000 and would like to see them around 1200-1400 size. My herd is in good BCS and do well maintaining it while weaning around 475 at 6-7 months. Trying to get that statistic up some by working on the momma cows and breeding to a GV bull for the muscling and weight gains while maintaining reasonable CE/LBW.

Can you explain the statement of breeding out CE? Is that on the momma side or the bull side or both?[/quote] well it was 3way... but if you retain heifers over the years the bull has 90% influence in your herd and using lbw bulls year after year ??.. thats my opinion im sure its wrong though
:cowboy:

 

[3waycross]

Alacattleman,
Are you saying that it is better to use the LBW/CE Angus on the heifer? I get that as a good idea was just curious as to the benefit of not waiting one calf crop on those six heifers (or so) to potentially gain a year on the GV crossed calves and then breed straight terminal with the GV from there. I think I said that right. My plan is to increase the milk production in my momma calves and gain some size. Currently cows are around 1000 and would like to see them around 1200-1400 size. My herd is in good BCS and do well maintaining it while weaning around 475 at 6-7 months. Trying to get that statistic up some by working on the momma cows and breeding to a GV bull for the muscling and weight gains while maintaining reasonable CE/LBW.

Can you explain the statement of breeding out CE? Is that on the momma side or the bull side or both?

There are plenty of real good low birthweight Angus bulls that have great numbers for growth and milk. Why not AI your heifers to one of them and then you can always keep any replacements from that mating that you like, and then go back on the GV with them later on. It maintains that good heterosis.

RE breeding out calving ease. I have been told by some pretty knowledgeable folks that if you just keep breeding for low BW sooner or later your calving ease inherent in your cowherd will suffer. In other words they get to the point where that is all they can birth is little bitty calves.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Or you can push BW and wonder if you'll have to help every cow out there. If the vast majority of your calves from your heifers are 70-80 pounds and 80-90 on your cows you won't have too much trouble birth or performance wise. Big dead calves drug out to the s...tpile don't have much of a rate of gain. I might not ne knowledgeable but I have been raising cows for a long time and have watched enough calving wrecks to know what causes them. Moderation in all things makes ranching fun not a chore.

 

[3waycross]

Or you can push BW and wonder if you'll have to help every cow out there. If the vast majority of your calves from your heifers are 70-80 pounds and 80-90 on your cows you won't have too much trouble birth or performance wise. Big dead calves drug out to the s...tpile don't have much of a rate of gain. I might not ne knowledgeable but I have been raising cows for a long time and have watched enough calving wrecks to know what causes them. Moderation in all things makes ranching fun not a chore.

I believe I just said Avoid extremes wherever possible Why are you getting up in arms. I totally agree with you. What I DO NOT agree with is using calving ease bulls generation after generation and producing heifers that cannot birth an 80 lb calf.

I have a Gelbvieh cow that birthed a 92 lb calf unassisted and calved again in 11 months. That cow is now 3 1/2 yrs old and weighs no more than 1200lbs. Her calf this year out of my Angus bull was under 75lbs. Either way she got the job done. That's the kind of cow I want to sell bulls out of.

 

[alacattleman]

Or you can push BW and wonder if you'll have to help every cow out there. If the vast majority of your calves from your heifers are 70-80 pounds and 80-90 on your cows you won't have too much trouble birth or performance wise. Big dead calves drug out to the s...tpile don't have much of a rate of gain. but I I might not ne knowledgeable have been raising cows for a long time and have watched enough calving wrecks to know what causes them. Moderation in all things makes ranching fun not a chore.

id have to say your pretty dam knowledgable from what ive seen,, you seem to be one man i could label Cowboy """"" thats not meant to demean any body else on here

 

[plumber_greg]

Or you can push BW and wonder if you'll have to help every cow out there. If the vast majority of your calves from your heifers are 70-80 pounds and 80-90 on your cows you won't have too much trouble birth or performance wise. Big dead calves drug out to the s...tpile don't have much of a rate of gain. I might not ne knowledgeable but I have been raising cows for a long time and have watched enough calving wrecks to know what causes them. Moderation in all things makes ranching fun not a chore.

I'm really glad you posted that. So many producers think a 50 lb. calf is what calving ease is all about. I've always believed if you want the weaning weights up the birth weight has to be reasonably. If your mature cows can't have a 90 lb. calf without assistance, better look at what you did in the CE department saving or buying heifers. gs

 

[3waycross]

Or you can push BW and wonder if you'll have to help every cow out there. If the vast majority of your calves from your heifers are 70-80 pounds and 80-90 on your cows you won't have too much trouble birth or performance wise. Big dead calves drug out to the s...tpile don't have much of a rate of gain. I might not ne knowledgeable but I have been raising cows for a long time and have watched enough calving wrecks to know what causes them. Moderation in all things makes ranching fun not a chore.

I'm really glad you posted that. So many producers think a 50 lb. calf is what calving ease is all about. I've always believed if you want the weaning weights up the birth weight has to be reasonably. If your mature cows can't have a 90 lb. calf without assistance, better look at what you did in the CE department saving or buying heifers. gs

That was my whole point to begin with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then Northern Rancher "preaches to the choir" and you sing halealuja. You guys crack me up!

 

[plumber_greg]

Heck, Threeway, didn't know that I disagreed with you. Just my opinion that I agreed with NR. gs

 

[3waycross]

Heck, Threeway, didn't know that I disagreed with you. Just my opinion that I agreed with NR. gs

You didn't. :tiphat:

 

[frankly]

If you are retaining heifers, hereford is the bull to use. for terminal take a limo.

 

[regenwether]

I have a black baldie herd. Depends on your end market. I sell my spring calves in the sale barn when they are 7-8 wt. I use a Simm-angus as my terminal. If I was not selling in the sale barn then hands down in would be Char bull. Stick with those F-1 mamma's. Don't hold back any of those terminal heifers.

Make a plan and stick to it! All too often people don't and they end up with....(all I could come up) a mutt dog! Get my drift? :tiphat:

 

[hillbillycwo]

Thanks for the advice. 3Way- I appreciate the clarification on the CE/LBW. I never thougt about that. Breeding LBW to heifers then retaining those heifers would reduce pelvic size over time and ability to have larger calves. I would think it would also increase the risk of having that calf that is just too small to be vibrant enough for survival if you had a late season birth. Is that thinking correctly?

Never AI'd but I am going to talk to my vet about that one and my extension agent to see if I can find someone to teach me how to do it. I like that idea as I would not have to have an Angus bull for just heifers and then a terminal sire for my production cows. That would save on feed, hay and pasture. Plus you could keep those heifers and maintain your base and increase your genetics at the same time with some research and study.

 

[alacattleman]

Thanks for the advice. 3Way- I appreciate the clarification on the CE/LBW. I never thougt about that. Breeding LBW to heifers then retaining those heifers would reduce pelvic size over time and ability to have larger calves. I would think it would also increase the risk of having that calf that is just too small to be vibrant enough for survival if you had a late season birth. Is that thinking correctly?

Never AI'd but I am going to talk to my vet about that one and my extension agent to see if I can find someone to teach me how to do it. I like that idea as I would not have to have an Angus bull for just heifers and then a terminal sire for my production cows. That would save on feed, hay and pasture. Plus you could keep those heifers and maintain your base and increase your genetics at the same time with some research and study.

no the dinks will survive. :cowboy: . those to""" LARGE"" that hve trouble getting here are the ones id worry about

 

[Northern Rancher]

Breeding for bigger calves you might have to assist in hopes that the heifer calves will grow up and be able to calve unassisted is just plain silly. By all means use a little bigger BW bull on your cows but if you really push the performance deal be disciplined enough to sell the heifer calves or make sure your alarm clock works because you won't want to miss any calving checks. Bigger heifers have bigger pelvic openings and usually have a bigger calf that fills it so the gain is really nil. Our own heifers calve on grass and get checked midday to tag calves if they happen to be where you can get to them.

 

[3waycross]

Breeding for bigger calves you might have to assist in hopes that the heifer calves will grow up and be able to calve unassisted is just plain silly. By all means use a little bigger BW bull on your cows but if you really push the performance deal be disciplined enough to sell the heifer calves or make sure your alarm clock works because you won't want to miss any calving checks. Bigger heifers have bigger pelvic openings and usually have a bigger calf that fills it so the gain is really nil. Our own heifers calve on grass and get checked midday to tag calves if they happen to be where you can get to them.

I never said to breed for bigger birthweights. I said that if you continue to chase calving ease you might just chase it right out of your herd.

I don't know how many more times I have to say AVOID THE EXTREMES Is that clear enough for everyone. I also don't think anyone else advocated that either.

Northern Rancher I respect you a lot, please stop making this about something that it's not.

 

[alacattleman]

yep this topic seems to be taking wider circles to talk about the same thing, :cowboy:

 

[WichitaLineMan]

I usually take a .45 to check heifers. Culling, is what some people call it.

 

[TexasBred]

I usually take a .45 to check heifers. Culling, is what some people call it.

:dunce:

 

[Northern Rancher]

Moderation in all things!!! Through the A'I business I've just seen to many calving wrecks from tinkering with BW.