the question of "objective"

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vclavin":1696tw2t said:
If EPD's mean nothing then what's the point guy? Does that mean you throw them out the window when you look for bulls?
I have ultrasound to backup the carcass EPD's , come spring we'll see how their progeny does.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin


It should be obvious to you by now Val. EPD numbers are resisted by the establishment. There are fewer and fewer of these every day, and this should be obvious also. In another 5-10 years, there will be zero resistors left. I will wager if you keep doing what you are doing, you can be a big time breeder if that is your wish.
 
It should be obvious to you by now Val. EPD numbers are resisted by the establishment. There are fewer and fewer of these every day, and this should be obvious also. In another 5-10 years, there will be zero resistors left. I will wager if you keep doing what you are doing, you can be a big time breeder if that is your wish.
That's my goal, maybe not a "big time breeder" but at least a good one. I read whatever I can get my hands on. Genetics is fun to me and I enjoy manipulating them. I don't always get what i thought and sometimes I'm surprised. Like the first heifer that was 8.01IMF that was a surprise. I'm now trying to find out exactly what the packer wants, that will tell me what to breed for. I want my bull buyers to be able to get CAB benefits.They may not wish to retain ownership, but it might be nice to have calves that someone is bidding high for!
Beef Speciallist gave me a formula to stick by to reach my goals of the "Perfect" animal. We go over the data and breeding plans each season. We look at all the EPD's not just one or 2. Hard part right now is getting RE without sacrificing IMF.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin
 
any idiot can stack numbers, which I am assuming is exactly what you did to get 'good' epds, doesn't mean that the cattle will perform to those levels, or that they will transmit those levels, or if they even changed performance at all given that almost no-one in the purebred business is using epds in the way they were designed it has merely become a marketing tool where the sale managers and 'in crowd' set the goalposts, which continually move in order to keep everyone playing along.
Tell that to the geneticist that helped me!
Maybe you don't take those numbers seriously, I do. I also turn in all the data I can. Even birth weight are taken on an electronic scale. Those tapes are useless and very inaccurate.

Oh and Don Laughlin helped me pick out many of my first girls and taught me how to read/use the EPD's. I really like him. Don't know much about the replacement.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin
 
VLS_GUY":1m4cpwrl said:
If you like power bulls as much as I do then consider SAV Networth 4200. This bull puts muscle, bone and performance into Angus cattle- no funnel butts. Young Dale Monarch 12E is very similar in adding performance and muscle-he is a changer for herds stacked with calving ease spread bulls. Monarch adds more frame than Networth; but if you are serious about performance they merit attention.
Do you have registration numbers for these bulls. I'm having trouble locating them at the Angus website.
Thanks
Blessings
Valerei Clavin
 
Val, I think you're making some pretty wild assumptions about what data we record and submit and how it is taken. When I was young and naive I thought numbers and epds were everything, the 'modern' way to breed cattle, but a very wise and successful old Angus breeder said to me very simply "that's all very well but find something that fills your eye", it took me way too long to figure that out. BTW, we do submit AHIR data, birth, weaning wts, cow wts, yearling wts.

EPDs encourage outcrossing because the minute you start using your own bulls on your own cows and lose some of that across breed linkage your numbers go in the tank, bw epds go up, growth epds go down and all of a sudden you have 'bad' epds. It's a dilemma only as long as you want to continue to play the purebred one-upmanship game, once you decide that so long as your customers are making money and coming back for more and you appreciate the real depth of quality that will be inherent in your cattle you won't trade them for any amount of numbers.
 
RD-Sam":32ysbg5f said:
vclavin":32ysbg5f said:
VLS_GUY":32ysbg5f said:
If you like power bulls as much as I do then consider SAV Networth 4200. This bull puts muscle, bone and performance into Angus cattle- no funnel butts. Young Dale Monarch 12E is very similar in adding performance and muscle-he is a changer for herds stacked with calving ease spread bulls. Monarch adds more frame than Networth; but if you are serious about performance they merit attention.
What is a funnel butt? Hubby says our cattle have square butts.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

The funnel butt term comes from Doc Harris, I have asked for a detailed description of his term, and have yet to get it, along with other answers to questions about his theories and such. :lol2:
its when you take a imaginary funnel, and can set it perfectly on their ass
 
robert":2ciytmoa said:
Val, I think you're making some pretty wild assumptions about what data we record and submit and how it is taken. When I was young and naive I thought numbers and epds were everything, the 'modern' way to breed cattle, but a very wise and successful old Angus breeder said to me very simply "that's all very well but find something that fills your eye", it took me way too long to figure that out. BTW, we do submit AHIR data, birth, weaning wts, cow wts, yearling wts.

EPDs encourage outcrossing because the minute you start using your own bulls on your own cows and lose some of that across breed linkage your numbers go in the tank, bw epds go up, growth epds go down and all of a sudden you have 'bad' epds. It's a dilemma only as long as you want to continue to play the purebred one-upmanship game, once you decide that so long as your customers are making money and coming back for more and you appreciate the real depth of quality that will be inherent in your cattle you won't trade them for any amount of numbers.
Robert,
No, I don't think numbers are everything. I do, however, don't believe that eyeballing an animal can tell you their genetic potential. I bought registered cows from a guy that payed no attention to carcass EPD's. Hmmmm not smart. He too, liked looks. I'll take both. It's not an upmanship, it's a better the breed. Not a game, it's real genetic maniulation. I must have EPD's or DNA to do that. The big wide guy may or may not grow CAB calves. The good looking 7.1 frame bull I had proves that. THe 5.5 frame bull I put on girls grew better calves that weaned heavier. Mind you, the 7.1 frame bull was 2720lb when we sold him. We had to back him on the scales - really long bodied. 7.1 frame bull gained 5lbs a day on pasture. Learned my lesson.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin
 
krenwic":2kfewlty said:
buying animals from anyone means your breeding results are inferior the "theory" is correct except you have to start with good stock from the beginning. You cannot get blood out of a turnip. The idea that you can "breed em up" does not work when you start with shitballers.

Amazing the 360 you (guys) made in the last 5 years.

i agree with it being important to start right. what i was referring to is the folks who constantly go to big breeders for the next big thing. when you are starting out, i can understand; 10 years later is a different story.

who exactly are you referring to in "you (guys)"? :tiphat:
 
vclavin":17jl3crk said:
Can you guys be serious? Maybe you can't work your way up from bad EPD's , we did. We also invested in good EPD's and animals when we could afford it. By then, the Regional Angus Director helped me with choosing the breeding stock - I figure he knew what he was doing.
We went with calving ease bulls as they are the hardest to find, especially with fertility and carcass.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

for the record: increasing EPDs is the easiest task in the cattle world. pick the highest numbered bull.
this is not an accomplishment, only an (detrimental) action.

the regional director is just another man. his opinion will not likely make a difference in your "program" since numbers are the only criteria.

isnt every Angus type bull a calving ease bull?
 
robert":1s1t608v said:
Aero, you've come a be nice long way in 4 years! Pretty well agree with all points you made. I'm SHOCKED!! :lol:

now i have to rethink everything. :lol:

thanks.
 
vclavin":feznlzcq said:
If EPD's mean nothing then what's the point guy? Does that mean you throw them out the window when you look for bulls?
I have ultrasound to backup the carcass EPD's , come spring we'll see how their progeny does.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

if EPDs contribute more than 10% to your decision to use a bull, you dont know enough about him (or his pedigree).
 
vclavin":1t9ck3ib said:
I'm now trying to find out exactly what the packer wants, that will tell me what to breed for.

are you selling bulls to the packer?

this idea is the basis for subsequent mistakes. make bulls that help your customers.
 
vclavin":1bsjvb40 said:
Beef Speciallist gave me a formula to stick by to reach my goals of the "Perfect" animal. We go over the data and breeding plans each season. We look at all the EPD's not just one or 2. Hard part right now is getting RE without sacrificing IMF.

do you pay this person?
 
vclavin":2d4k1swu said:
robert":2d4k1swu said:
Val, I think you're making some pretty wild assumptions about what data we record and submit and how it is taken. When I was young and naive I thought numbers and epds were everything, the 'modern' way to breed cattle, but a very wise and successful old Angus breeder said to me very simply "that's all very well but find something that fills your eye", it took me way too long to figure that out. BTW, we do submit AHIR data, birth, weaning wts, cow wts, yearling wts.

EPDs encourage outcrossing because the minute you start using your own bulls on your own cows and lose some of that across breed linkage your numbers go in the tank, bw epds go up, growth epds go down and all of a sudden you have 'bad' epds. It's a dilemma only as long as you want to continue to play the purebred one-upmanship game, once you decide that so long as your customers are making money and coming back for more and you appreciate the real depth of quality that will be inherent in your cattle you won't trade them for any amount of numbers.
Robert,
No, I don't think numbers are everything. I do, however, don't believe that eyeballing an animal can tell you their genetic potential. I bought registered cows from a guy that payed no attention to carcass EPD's. Hmmmm not smart. He too, liked looks. I'll take both. It's not an upmanship, it's a better the breed. Not a game, it's real genetic maniulation. I must have EPD's or DNA to do that. The big wide guy may or may not grow CAB calves. The good looking 7.1 frame bull I had proves that. THe 5.5 frame bull I put on girls grew better calves that weaned heavier. Mind you, the 7.1 frame bull was 2720lb when we sold him. We had to back him on the scales - really long bodied. 7.1 frame bull gained 5lbs a day on pasture. Learned my lesson.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

there are some times when strangers go out of their way to gently nudge you in the right direction; Robert is that person in this situation. Instead of asking about why or how, you chose to just argue that you are right. this approach will cost you money and time that you can not get back.

we make these comments because we really want to help you out. the road you are on puts you in real danger and if you really like being in the cattle breeding business you should explore every concept and suggestion. the most successful people i know ask twice as many questions as they make statements. i don't remember a single question you have posed.
 
Young Dale Monarch 12E is a Canadian bull and his CAA registration number is 83873 2; AAA registration is: US12467225
Another bull I like besides the SAV bull is Allencroft Marshall CAA # 1180688.
SAV Networth 4200 is well enough promoted his registration is easy to find. Both the above bulls are on the net and if you google them data will come up easily.
 
there are some times when strangers go out of their way to gently nudge you in the right direction; Robert is that person in this situation. Instead of asking about why or how, you chose to just argue that you are right. this approach will cost you money and time that you can not get back.

we make these comments because we really want to help you out. the road you are on puts you in real danger and if you really like being in the cattle breeding business you should explore every concept and suggestion. the most successful people i know ask twice as many questions as they make statements. i don't remember a single question you have posed.
Robert,
Sorry to disappoint you, I don't see it your way. That's OK, I still like to see what you guys are using for breeding. Oh and, yes I do ask why, you just don't see it. I believe there is a thread "If not Objective then who" Isn't that a question? Besides, I've not decided whether you know what you are doing yet. I just can't see throwing out all the experts - true experts - guidance and follow you? Have you ever been to the CAB website and read the info ther? (question)
I do explore every concept and suggestion - doesn't mean I have to agree or take your suggestions. I research my info before I act. Lots of reading has gone into planning my heard not "seat of the pants" . There is really no point in having an association if you do not use their resources and simply believe "you" are smarter. I prefer to make "informed" decisions. I add in what I gather here and other places, then make a decision.

As far as questions go, most of what I need to know, you are not qualified to answer. Genetics. Sorry, phenotype alone does not get it. PERIOD.

However, you can help with your opinions on AI sires you like/dislike. Dispositions, and other things.
Have an awesome day
Blessings
Valerie Clavin
 
Unbelievable. Valerie, with an attitude like that, you'd better stick with the paid professionals. You're not going to get any help from the guys in the trenches who actually deal with the cattle and the producers.
 

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