Red vrs Black, explain me..

[Lorenzo]

Let me tell you something that happened last year.

First we (a group of uruguayan breeders) went to the US to visit several feedlots, AI companies, ranches, etc.
During that vist, all of us, proud meat consumers, went to a small restaurant at Dodge city, Kansas.

Well six of us asked for a ribeye.

My life as a meat consumer can be separated in two periods, before Kansas (BK) and after Kansas (AK) :lol2:

All of the six ribeye we asked were exactly identical, not an inch bigger or smaller, they were like factory ribeyes, like hamburgers but in a ribeye version

Well a couple of months later, the CEO, of a very well known AI international company visited us, obviosly we took him to a place to eat meat. Guess what, he loved argentinians and uruguayans meat !!! we couldn't believe him. We ask him how he can prefer our meats more than those juicy's ribeyes from Kansas, he told us, because these are not so tender, this meat is more "wild" and tasty...

So obviusly, human beings always prefer what they don't have, our neighbour grass is always more green than ours and his wife is prettier then ours :lol2:

Till today we still think that he was crazy and that nothing compares with those juicy's "exactly the same" Kansas ribeyes :lol2:

What I am trying to say ? that those angus work great for your feedlots, maybe here over grassy conditions there are not so many differences between angus and hereford's.

And obviously, the F1 of these breeds will always be the most efficients animals for meat producers in our grassy conditions.

L

 

[3waycross]

Very good observations Lorenzo. It's nice to get another view of the world. We tend as a country to be kind of egocentric and think the whole world has to think just like us. Your observations are refreshing.

 

[tlmcr]

9259

Please show me a 100% Simmental that is black.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

In 1991 Colorado State University began studies involving Hereford beef, and from these studies, the Certified Hereford Beef program was born. The studies proved that Hereford beef even in the Select grade, tastes better, and is juicier than USDA upper 2/3 Choice. More recent studies have also proven that the Hereford breed has a higher occurence of the tenderness genes than any other breed, and the lowest for the least desirable gene affecting tenderness. (I just got done looking at this data that I received in the mail today, sent to me by Mick Welch of CHB, as I am trying to get my favorite breakfast restaurant to switch to CHB) Herefords have also beaten the Kansas Yard average in ADG and cost of gain every year since the early 90's in the Genetic Outreach program, and they have actually increased their advantage over the last several years. Chef Mike Monahan of Chefs USA LLC states, "Certified Hereford Beef is my No. 1 choice of beef.."

U.S. MARC recent germplasm evaluation progress report #22 has proof of Herf efficiency. In four of six harvest points, Herefords were the most feed efficient for all the breeds tested, which included Herefords, Angus, Red Angus, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Limousin, and Charolais. When fed to a retail product endpoint of 456# of red meat yield, Herefords came in 4th, but beat Angus, Red Angus, and Gelbvieh.

More specifics about tenderness DNA; in frequency of the alleles, G-T was least favorable, CC most favorable, Herfs tied for second in CC, had most GC and CT, and least GT. This was a Kansas State study, Michael E. Dikeman. You can go to http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/lvstk2/srp978.pdf for more details.

 

[angus9259]

9259

Please show me a 100% Simmental that is black.

Can't do it. But I can probably show you a simmental that will grade better and easier because he is! :lol:

My point is not breed bashing. I raise registered black angus seedstock but use red simmi and red limmi cross for commercial calf development. My point is simply that many outside the angus world devalue the entire concept of what angus genetics bring to carcass quality and cost to grade as a marketing ploy and the idea that 6 marketing guys at the AAA headquarters have brainwashed an entire nation with an intent to conquer the world with its evil hoax is ridiculous and, as you know, a black hided limi or simi or baldy is the quickest way to tell if those angus genetics are in there.

 

[angus9259]

In 1991 Colorado State University began studies involving Hereford beef, and from these studies, the Certified Hereford Beef program was born. The studies proved that Hereford beef even in the Select grade, tastes better, and is juicier than USDA upper 2/3 Choice. More recent studies have also proven that the Hereford breed has a higher occurence of the tenderness genes than any other breed, and the lowest for the least desirable gene affecting tenderness. (I just got done looking at this data that I received in the mail today, sent to me by Mick Welch of CHB, as I am trying to get my favorite breakfast restaurant to switch to CHB) Herefords have also beaten the Kansas Yard average in ADG and cost of gain every year since the early 90's in the Genetic Outreach program, and they have actually increased their advantage over the last several years. Chef Mike Monahan of Chefs USA LLC states, "Certified Hereford Beef is my No. 1 choice of beef.."

U.S. MARC recent germplasm evaluation progress report #22 has proof of Herf efficiency. In four of six harvest points, Herefords were the most feed efficient for all the breeds tested, which included Herefords, Angus, Red Angus, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Limousin, and Charolais. When fed to a retail product endpoint of 456# of red meat yield, Herefords came in 4th, but beat Angus, Red Angus, and Gelbvieh.

More specifics about tenderness DNA; in frequency of the alleles, G-T was least favorable, CC most favorable, Herfs tied for second in CC, had most GC and CT, and least GT. This was a Kansas State study, Michael E. Dikeman. You can go to http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/lvstk2/srp978.pdf for more details.

hhhhmmmm . . . sounds like a marketing ploy to me. the hereford people must have infiltrated the ranks of CSU. data means nothing. marketing is everything . . . especially if it's not in favor of my breed.

 

[dun]

Let me tell you something that happened last year.

First we (a group of uruguayan breeders) went to the US to visit several feedlots, AI companies, ranches, etc.
During that vist, all of us, proud meat consumers, went to a small restaurant at Dodge city, Kansas.

Well six of us asked for a ribeye.

My life as a meat consumer can be separated in two periods, before Kansas (BK) and after Kansas (AK) :lol2:

All of the six ribeye we asked were exactly identical, not an inch bigger or smaller, they were like factory ribeyes, like hamburgers but in a ribeye version

Well a couple of months later, the CEO, of a very well known AI international company visited us, obviosly we took him to a place to eat meat. Guess what, he loved argentinians and uruguayans meat !!! we couldn't believe him. We ask him how he can prefer our meats more than those juicy's ribeyes from Kansas, he told us, because these are not so tender, this meat is more "wild" and tasty...

So obviusly, human beings always prefer what they don't have, our neighbour grass is always more green than ours and his wife is prettier then ours :lol2:

Till today we still think that he was crazy and that nothing compares with those juicy's "exactly the same" Kansas ribeyes :lol2:

What I am trying to say ? that those angus work great for your feedlots, maybe here over grassy conditions there are not so many differences between angus and hereford's.

And obviously, the F1 of these breeds will always be the most efficients animals for meat producers in our grassy conditions.

L

The older the animal the more "beef" flavor it will have. The beef in the US market is barely more then a calf when it's butchered. My preference is for something 3-4 years old, but by then it pretty much has to be ground or I can;t chew it. But it's all to the individuals taste, my wife hates the older stuff.

 

[Frankie]

Lorenzo, it's good to hear that you liked your beef eating experience. Do you remember the name of the restaurant in Kansas?

 

[grand chaser09]

I saw that in the States, you have them in two separated associations, here in South America, we don't.

What really big differences you find to keep them separated and evaluate them separated in the shows ??

Maybe I don't know much, but the more I spend working with bulls the more I like red angus and herefords (and redbrangus and brafords).. :cowboy:

I don't know, is like it's easier for me to "see through" a red animal than a black animal, in other words, it's easier for me to see the good and bad things in a red animal than in a black animal, and also they look more cool... 8)

I must be very wrong because nowadays everyone associates black cattle with better meat.. :roll:


Lorenzo

when showing more people go with black calves because all if the defaults are easier to hide with paint and hair ect. but with a red calf it is harder to amtch paints and stuff. thats why there are more black than red in the show world.

 

[dun]

when showing more people go with black calves because all if the defaults are easier to hide with paint and hair ect. but with a red calf it is harder to amtch paints and stuff. thats why there are more black than red in the show world.

I don;t know about that. It seems that a lot of judges will place a black animal above a better red one. Goes back to the color stupidity thing.
At last years fair in the market steer class the way they lined up after judgine was, all the blacks, all the reds, then the whites, yellows and greys

 

[redcowsrule33]

As I have said in a previous thread, I look forward to the day that the genetics behind the steer and not his coat color is what makes the difference at the sale barn. Many of the breeds have made great strides in improving carcass quality. You can't say any longer that an angus makes a better carcass any more than you can say that a specific bull will be calving ease just because he is angus. I hope someday we will see blonde striped simmentals, red limmis and gelbviehs again in pastures and watch the poor quality bulls that have black coats as their one and only merit go down the road. Nirvana!

Once we are all treated equally and have the same standards applied the bovine racism will stop.

Here's a fun thing I've done - ask random consumers at the grocery store what an angus is. The answers will astonish you.

I'm not anti-angus, not at all, I just hate what the angus brand has done to our US cattle breeds. Our black simmis are treated to separate registries if even eligible in other countries. Why do you think that is?

Uniformity under the hide should make you money. For example, hide color disappears at the carcass and total performance contests at the county fair. Wouldn't it be interesting if youth had the option to show a steer in the beauty contest and/or enter a different steer in a feedlot contest? The lessons learned in both are so important yet so different. Would the steers in the feedlot look like the ones in the ring?

One last thing - I really believe that some buyers know that black does not equal better. But why pay higher prices if you can have the excuse to dock them? Just my opinion.

I'm stepping off the soapbox. Cheers to all. God bless all bovines.

 

[brandonm_13]

when showing more people go with black calves because all if the defaults are easier to hide with paint and hair ect. but with a red calf it is harder to amtch paints and stuff. thats why there are more black than red in the show world.

I don;t know about that. It seems that a lot of judges will place a black animal above a better red one. Goes back to the color stupidity thing.
At last years fair in the market steer class the way they lined up after judgine was, all the blacks, all the reds, then the whites, yellows and greys

That's what bothers me the most, when a trained judge places animals just on color, and thinks he is doing what's right.

 

[Lorenzo]

when showing more people go with black calves because all if the defaults are easier to hide with paint and hair ect. but with a red calf it is harder to amtch paints and stuff. thats why there are more black than red in the show world.

I don;t know about that. It seems that a lot of judges will place a black animal above a better red one. Goes back to the color stupidity thing.
At last years fair in the market steer class the way they lined up after judgine was, all the blacks, all the reds, then the whites, yellows and greys

That's what bothers me the most, when a trained judge places animals just on color, and thinks he is doing what's right.

As some of you know, this year Grand National Angus Champion in Uruguay was a red angus. Many but many uruguayan breeders were surprised that not only a red bull won but many others red bulls won in their different categories. BTW, the grand champion also won best animal of the show. The judge was an American called Tim Oldhe. Obviously he was not influenced by colours ;-)

The Champ

L

 

[Willow Springs]

Well a couple of months later, the CEO, of a very well known AI international company visited us, obviosly we took him to a place to eat meat. Guess what, he loved argentinians and uruguayans meat !!! we couldn't believe him. We ask him how he can prefer our meats more than those juicy's ribeyes from Kansas, he told us, because these are not so tender, this meat is more "wild" and tasty...

Lorenzo; I found this comment very interesting. I attended a beef school several weeks ago where we had the chance to do a taste test. Basically we all had several cubes of meat to eat, and were asked to rate which beef we liked the best without knowing what we were testing. One of the tests pitted prime triple A beef from a young animal against cow beef and the other against Austrailian and Uriguay beef. Half the people in attendance actually prferred the cow beef to the prime triple A. In the other test half the people preferred the prime triple A and half preferred the beef from Uraguay; very few chose the Australian. Most of the reason that the cow beef or Uraguay beef was chosen was because of flavour. Our instructor also made a comment that he had been in Colorado eating at a very expensive steak house, and his hosts thought that the steaks were the some of the best they had ever had; he couldn't finish his mushy corn fed steak; it was the worst steak he had ever had. No offence intended there, those were his own words.

After we had the taste test we all talked a bit about why we made our choices. In most cases it turned out that the people who chose the more "wild flavour" had usually grown up eating wild meat, young cows or were involved in more grass finished systems.
I was one who liked more flavour and I grew up eating a lot of wild meat.

Basically the moral is that a persons guage of a good steak depends very much on where and what they grew up eating. This is one of the biggest challenges in the beef industry. We market based on one set of ideals, but more than half the population would actually prefer something else. It is no wonder that we have trouble captuirng market from the cookie cutter production of chicken and pork.

 

[Lorenzo]

Willow Springs,

Very interesting post !!!!

I will spread the voice around here among clients and friends about that test you have done up there. Very good and very interesting conclusions.

I will tell you something that maybe someone here will not like to read.

As I told you, we loved those ribeyes we ate at Kansas, but what we really don't like, and for us was a disgusting experience was when we visited the feedlots. We have never saw that before, here we have 5 or 6 feedlots with VERY few cattle, but when we saw those big areas with all that cattle side by side just like chickens in cages we were impressed. Some of us, me included, after that started to ate sandwiches and other meals, I don't touch and hamburger for a good time after that.

Maybe you are used to that, but it doesn´t look good, was like a "meat factory"

L

 

[alacattleman]

I don;t know about that. It seems that a lot of judges will place a black animal above a better red one. Goes back to the color stupidity thing.
At last years fair in the market steer class the way they lined up after judgine was, all the blacks, all the reds, then the whites, yellows and greys[/quote]


That's what bothers me the most, when a trained judge places animals just on color, and thinks he is doing what's right.[/quote]

As some of you know, this year Grand National Angus Champion in Uruguay was a red angus. Many but many uruguayan breeders were surprised that not only a red bull won but many others red bulls won in their different categories. BTW, the grand champion also won best animal of the show. The judge was an American called Tim Oldhe. Obviously he was not influenced by colours ;-)

The Champ

L[/quote] well no wonder, he knows how too raise em .... he let the quailty overrule the color

 

[cedar]

i think beef is best 20 -24 mo old grass or grain fed

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Bear with me for a moment, Folks, as I elucidate on a subject that APPEARS abstruse! The Black vs. Red "conundrum" is not as difficult to understand as it appears on the face of the matter!

Here are a few 'simple' answers to that situation, from which you may "pick and choose'; as your emotions and attitudes may lead you.

The 'precursor' of the Aberdeen-Angus Breed in the United States in the 1870's arbitrarily (for whatever collection of reasons :?: :???: :? decided that BLACK would be the color that he would concentrate on for the propagation of Angus Cattle - probably because BLACK is genetically dominate - it would be easier than fighting genetic inheritance factors - I guess - - I don't know. The Angus Breed certainly produced "more desirable eating experiences" than the tough Texas Longhorns that trekked 1000 or more miles up to the center of Kansas and Sedalia, Missouri to be served to the burgeoning population of the Country - BUT - the Black Color - ALONE had absolutely NOTHING to do with the quality, flavor, tenderness or nutritional value of the produced meat!

HOWEVER!! :banana: as time progressed, and beef breeders learned more about improved genetic breeding and s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d their imaginations and eagerness to improve their beef product, men with forward-thinking ideas realized that in order to CREATE a continuing demand for their business AND their product, they had to cooperate and unite in ONE STRONG EFFORT to market the meat they produced, and engender a DEMAND for the ultimate result - DELICIOUS, TENDER AND TASTY BEEF! :tiphat: :clap: :clap: (...and..oh,.. by the way..the BEST meat also had to wear a BLACK HIDE!!!)

They bonded together, formed an Association with Rules and Regulations, and determined that Black Angus Beef was the BEST that anyone could ever hope to serve to "discriminating tastes"!! :roll: :clap: :clap: ...and to everybody elses tastes also! But to separate the BEST from the REST - - it had to have a BLACK HIDE!!

...and NOW you know "The Rest of the Story!"

BUT! That is NOT the 'Rest of the Story!" As the attention and engrossment of the 'eating' public toward good, rich, tender, flavorful beef became the 'order of the day', other Beef Cattle breeds jumped on the "RAIL", if you will, and the race was on!! Prejudice was hugging the rail and BLACK was running second to the Red and White Hereford Breed! :clap: :clap: As Entrepreneaurialism raged across the United States (and Canada), Angus breeders became entralled with improved herd management technics, increased knowledge concerning their cattle operations, and the marketing methods to capture and tweak the discriminating tastes and epicurean delights of the American people with regard to appreciating GOOD beef meals, and the Protein that was provided! Number "2" was starting to work harder!

As the American Angus Association increased in numbers and financial worth, Public Relations and Advertising became the order of the day, and the Association did, and has done, an enviable job of Merchandising and Marketing "Black Angus Beef" as the ONLY desirable beef product to be propagated and sold under a "Trademarked" name (Certified Angus Beef - CAB) and the Public "bought it" hook, line and sinker - BLACK HIDE and all! ...and, that is - the majority of the city-bred, uninformed, unknowable, and wanna-be connoisseur's who wish to display their Epicurean acumen. Therefore, almost anybody can talk with a reasonably intelligent sounding discourse on beef cuts and desirability of different grades - Prime, Choice, Select ec., even if they don't have a clue what they are talking about. They just 'parrot' what the Angus people have told them about "Black Angus" because that is what they see everywhere. It is a 'MONKEY SEE - MONKEY DO' reflex action, which, unfortunately, is not based entirely on absolute fact, as is being proved in many ways and with different breeds every day.

Another 'simple' answer to the 'black color only stupidity thing' is the fact that Show Judges have ALSO been caught up in the winds of the Black Tornado of Beef cattle color. Judges, many of whom have been indoctrinated into thinking that 'Black is Beautiful' are adding fuel to the flames of UNreasonable thought, and by their judging decisions are leading new breeders down roads which are not necessarily paved with good intentions.

The ANSWER which will bring common sense and reasonableness to quality beef cattle breeding is not to follow whatever "somebody else" says, but to become educated and think for yourself! What is under a Black Hide may be beautiful, but beauty may be under OTHER colored Hide's as well. It is your responsibility as a dedicated Beef Producer to discern the difference between acceptable and UNacceptable, in spite of the hide COLOR!

And THAT IS the "REST of the Story!"

AND A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EACH OF YOU!!

DOC HARRIS

 

[angus9259]

And THAT IS the "REST of the Story!"

AND A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EACH OF YOU!!

DOC HARRIS

Actually, the rest of the story is that I get paid $0.10 more for a black hided calf and get paid $100 more for a bull that will throw them. My customers (feedlots and cow/calf operations) may be mindless, easily manipulated idiots, but last I checked, they still paid the bills.

 

[novatech]

As the American Angus Association increased in numbers and financial worth, Public Relations and Advertising became the order of the day, and the Association did, and has done, an enviable job of Merchandising and Marketing "Black Angus Beef" as the ONLY desirable beef product to be propagated and sold under a "Trademarked" name (Certified Angus Beef - CAB) and the Public "bought it" hook, line and sinker - BLACK HIDE and all! ...and, that is - the majority of the city-bred, uninformed, unknowable, and wanna-be connoisseur's who wish to display their Epicurean acumen. Therefore, almost anybody can talk with a reasonably intelligent sounding discourse on beef cuts and desirability of different grades - Prime, Choice, Select ec., even if they don't have a clue what they are talking about. They just 'parrot' what the Angus people have told them about "Black Angus" because that is what they see everywhere. It is a 'MONKEY SEE - MONKEY DO' reflex action, which, unfortunately, is not based entirely on absolute fact, as is being proved in many ways and with different breeds every day.What I do not understand is that many of the members advocate this pulling the wool over the public eye as good. How can one trust what the organization has to say about anything? How do they know they are not being scammed as well. How would one expect me to believe somebody that supported this kind of promotion?
You can look at good as being great, the scam worked.
Or you can look at the word good as in versus evil.
In my mind pulling the wool over the eyes of the consumer is not good.
Thanks Doc for not using that word.