M.Magis
Well-known member
Smokes here will bring what solid blacks will, all things being equal.
Red Charolais
- Thread starter Warren Allison
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A few years ago Three Trees Ranch in Sharpsburg GA had the red Charolais if my memory is correct. I don't think they are still in business. Their reds came out of Canada. Must have been during mad cow because the boarder was closed and the day it opened they were heading to GA with a load of reds. They got caught in a blizzard and lost a promising young bull. Everyone forgive me if I got any of this wrong.
OP
OP
I saw a documentary about them from Purina, in 2010. At that time, Three Trees was actually 4 ranches in Ga, totalling 3300 acers. They also had 3000 in Wyoming and 3000 in Oklahoma. The focus of this documentary was about their Angus seed stock operation and the role Purina nutrition played. Lots of scenes in the video showed white and red cattle as well. Searches on the internet now shows several Three Trees farms in Ga, and a lot of them are subdivisions, developments and one 170acre recreational farm in north Ga that was for sale. Another interview I saw of their general ranch manager in the 2010's, said that in addition to the main Angus operation, that Three Trees also at one time, raised Red Angus, Charolais, Black Charolais and Red Charolais. Latest info on Three Trees as a big ranching operation was dated 2013. Saw a real estate youtube video abut the Waggoner ranch being for sale in 2010. Half million acres and a $725mil price, which included not only the land and facilities, but all equipment, horses and cattle.. a turn-key deal. The dude who owned the Three Trees, was one of the 5 contenders that had been narrowed down as possibly buying the ranch.
Travlr
Well-known member
I'm surprised there are places that don't. At least in the United States.
OP
OP
You are right ,KY Hills. I found a red Char FB group today, and there were a lot of websites and other FB pages on it for Char breeders that had red Chars. And sone with black Char too. Ads for the black Char bulls would list the percentage Char in them. 7/8th Char, and one listed as 15/16 Char, all said they were pb Char.
All the info on several sites, said that red Char were 100% Char, with the same attributes as white, just didn't have the dilute mutation. Several said that long ago in France , that Char were red. Occasionally one would have a dilute gene that made them tan. It said that people bred those to each other until they got the white ones with the double dilute genes. The white did nothing to hurt, change or enchance the Charolais in any way, people just thought they were prettier white. They said the reds were brought back by reversing thagt process... breeding tan to tan, and testing for the dilute genes, These are registered in the same association as white Charolais.
So yes, I think they will make a good terminal bull for those black Simm x Chi-Angus heifers. Dan brought up another good point, though, He said if it were him, he'd breed them first time to one of those homo for black and polled 15/16ths Black Herefords. He said that Continental x British heterosis would probably result in as much, if not more, growth than using a Char bull would. We will see. We are over a year away before breeding these heifers we haven't even gotten yet. I am thinking of all kinds of possibilities with these red Char and different kinds of black cattle
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crossbreed
Well-known member
You can interpret it any way you want to further an argument (no you are not here) but bottom line is the same calf will bring more if he's red or black instead of white in most cases. A manager at a local sale barn told me personally that my smokies would be below average despite being outstanding calves (my best ever). So if you believe the char extra lbs evens it out you're good to go. Otherwise join the black/red market since we are all chasing the dollar
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I watch sales all over the US almost daily, and you are wrong. Not all black calves bring a CAB premium. The later in the stage of development, the more this is true. A lot of trailer weaned black calves , that have no dairy in them, will bring that premium at the sale. The older they get, and the closer stages to slaughter they get, the fewer will fetch the CAB premium. It is obvious to buyers which ones will grade Prime, and which ones will grade select and choice etc. Yes, a decent smoky, or red, or yellow, or Hereford will bring the same...all factors equal as you said, as the black ones that buyers feel won't make CAB. But NO ONE.... EVER...has paid or will pay the CAB premium on a smoky calf, They'd be fools to do so. At any sale where good smokies, reds, etc, sold for the same as the blacks that day...you can bet the farm none of those black calves made CAB at processing.
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OP
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M.Magis
Well-known member
If you watched as closely as you claim, you'd know that its not always black calves topping the sale. Which is what you're saying. But I certainly don't want to argue with an expert, carry on.
OP
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Nope. Again you are wrong. I realize my post was 4 or 5 sentences long, so I will break it down for you to make it easier for you to understand I said : "Not all black calves bring a CAB premium" and :" But NO ONE.... EVER...has paid or will pay the CAB premium on a smoky calf, "
OP
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Red and rwf will bring more per lb, for the same weight calves than smokies, Chars, yellow, Hereford or Short Horn roan color for sure. But no red calf will ever bring the CAB premium. and some black calves won't, either. Talking with people on the red Charolais group, about my thoughts on breeding a red Char to black Simm X Chi-Angus , several said they'd like to sell me semen, but that Char on Simm won't make that much difference as far as growth goes, compared to just breeding Sim to SIm or Char to Char. 2 or 3 said that using the homo for red and polled Char, as a terminal cross on British cows, would result in a calf growing as big and fast, if not bigger and faster. One breeder said he mostly sells semen to commercial operations that have homo for black Angus or Black Hereford and that his 2nd biggest market is to commercial Brangus operations. Another said his red Charolais bull are popular with red Angus, Hereford , and red baldy operations. He said they like the deep red calves better than the diluted red or tan they'd get with white bulls, and he markets white bulls as well.
Ky hills
Well-known member
Can't speak to how it is now, but back 25-30 years ago, my purebred Charolais would outperform any British x Charolais cross, and straight British crosses that I've had since are nowhere near the performance of the Charolais.
The Charolais do cross well British breeds.
The only advantage that I can see to crossing continental breeds would be to gain a little hybrid vigor and maybe put a little color into the white Charolais.
The Charolais do cross well British breeds.
The only advantage that I can see to crossing continental breeds would be to gain a little hybrid vigor and maybe put a little color into the white Charolais.
OP
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Early 70's, after folks down here had learned a hard lesson on using Simm and Char bulls on our little Herf and Angus cows, people started breeding the other way: Hereford and Angus bulls on Simm cows , and Hereford bulls on Charolais cows. People also bred Simm x Char crosses, which were very popular in the brand new commercial classes in the cow shows. The Herf x Char and Ang x Simm calves grew just as fast, and just as big as the Char x Simm. Lots more hybrid vigor with a British x Continental cross, than a Continental x Continental cross. The Herf x Char looked like yellow and white Herfords, and the Simm X Char looked like yellow and white Simms. Main way you could tell them apart is the Simm x Char would have yellow eye patches. Same with the Ang x Simm.... they looked like big ole black baldies with a black eye patch.
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My neighbor that raises the Gert X Hereford, just got Dan to order some homo for red (no dilute gene) , homo for polled Red Char semen. He is going to try it on a 5 of his Gert cows. Will be interesting to see how those calves stack up compared to his Gert X Herf. He also has two Gert X Herf heifers that just had Angus claves, and he is thinking of breeding them to the red Char as well. That should be an ideal third-breed terminal cross. We will know about this time next year.
And, the boy that has converted his row crop land to pasture, and is breeding those "reverse black baldies" ( Black Herefords x Red Angus), that I have been buying the red Angus and red Brangus cows and heifers for, told me at the sale yesterday, to try to find him 5 or 6 Red Char cows. He wants to try them with his Black Hereford bulls. After hours online yesterday, last night and today, this is going to be a tough order to fill. No one has any good 3-6 year old cows for sale, most that are for sale are culls for some reason or another. At least, not at a price that would make sense for breeding commercial cattle. This is going to take up a lot of time, and I don't think I will find any at a price I could mark up a little to make it worth my while. He may have to settle for heifers. One of his BH bulls is a low birth weight, CE heifer bull, and given the size of Char, he may be ok with heifers. I have Dan asking around about some red Char cows, too. He said they have never fooled with them , but he knows other Char breeders that have.
There must be a down-side or negative to them vs whites, or seems like there would be more of them. From other forums and FB groups, the consensus is their numbers are growing rapidly in the US, though.
And, the boy that has converted his row crop land to pasture, and is breeding those "reverse black baldies" ( Black Herefords x Red Angus), that I have been buying the red Angus and red Brangus cows and heifers for, told me at the sale yesterday, to try to find him 5 or 6 Red Char cows. He wants to try them with his Black Hereford bulls. After hours online yesterday, last night and today, this is going to be a tough order to fill. No one has any good 3-6 year old cows for sale, most that are for sale are culls for some reason or another. At least, not at a price that would make sense for breeding commercial cattle. This is going to take up a lot of time, and I don't think I will find any at a price I could mark up a little to make it worth my while. He may have to settle for heifers. One of his BH bulls is a low birth weight, CE heifer bull, and given the size of Char, he may be ok with heifers. I have Dan asking around about some red Char cows, too. He said they have never fooled with them , but he knows other Char breeders that have.
There must be a down-side or negative to them vs whites, or seems like there would be more of them. From other forums and FB groups, the consensus is their numbers are growing rapidly in the US, though.
