F-1 Wagyu

[Peace]

I asked this... "Is all wagyu beef heavily marbled?" of google... and got this, "Only 0.5% of Wagyu in Japan reaches a BMS of 12."

Which makes me think that people are raising an awful lot of scrawny, inefficient cattle to get that "0.5%" that marble extremely. Is this your own experience?

I'm not trying to answer for the poster you quoted, but I'm going to tell you that you're looking at this way too technically. Consumers aren't that practical and even the most educated aren't going to ask if it's i of the .5% that reach a BMS of 12. For the most part 99.9% of the people that are buying a Wagyu steak are either trying it to splurge or eat it before and thought it was awesome.

I am thinking that if you're considering getting into this end of the market, you better have, know of or be willing to create a market that is willing to pay for what you're offering. While it is or tends to be difficult to create a market, it can be done. It will take plenty of work and savvy, but it can be done.

To be fair, that's part of the reason I started the Holstein/Hereford thread, I was thinking if I could make a bigger sized cattle and then add this scrawny breed to it and have some size it might be something to dabble in. I'm probably dreaming the wrong dream, but you just never know.

 

[acefire]

Not a fan of wagyu...

From what I've been able to find out, "wa" means "Japanese"... and, "gyu" means "cattle". So anything that comes from Japan, any breed, can be called wagyu. There are something like six breeds of cattle from Japan. Black, brown, polled, shorthorn, kuchinoshima, and mishima. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information on the internet.

I doubt all Japanese cattle will carry the hyper-marbling genes. But then I can't seem to find much information that is attributed to breed specific marbling. All I find is that "Kobe" beef is high percentage fat and exceptionally well marbled... but no breed specified.

All I know is that there seems to be a lot of hype lately and not much delivery.

I suspect the hype is selling poor cattle much like people have been sold ostriches, rhea, miniature pigs/cows/horses, llama, and alpaca. Many promises of high returns without any real substance to the claims.

Correct me if I'm wrong... but I'll stick with cattle that have meat on them.

Progressive Cattle Sept. 2022
www.agproud.com/articles/55853-building-benefits-through-wagyu-cattle-and-crosses

Its the meat on the inside, not the look on the outside.

Real facts, one of the largest red wagyu breeders and branded beef programs currently is processing 25000 head a year and needs 5000 more ostriches, rhea, ect never had this problem. Probably 20000 plus are F1s. This is a 25 year program and still growing.

 

[Stickney94]

I asked this... "Is all wagyu beef heavily marbled?" of google... and got this, "Only 0.5% of Wagyu in Japan reaches a BMS of 12."

Which makes me think that people are raising an awful lot of scrawny, inefficient cattle to get that "0.5%" that marble extremely. Is this your own experience?

Just to be clear - the methods/goals in Japan are different than the US. I don't think many of the large US Wagyu feeders/distributors (Imperial Beef for example) are shooting for A5/BMS 12.

My experience - yes I have had some slow growth smaller F1/F2 animals. The large majority however finish in the same time and at similar weights to our PB angus. I don't feed out to 27 months or 36 months like is often mentioned for wagyu -- I don't have a market to sustain those extra feed costs.

I do see a LOT of individuals spending large sums on Wagyu cattle and I suspect that is going to end poorly for many.

 

[Dave]

My neighbor raises purebred Wagyu to sell as breeding stock. The F-1 calves come from his commercial heifers which he breeds to Wagyu for calving ease. I have no idea how they look once put on feed because he sells them before that. I do know that as calves and short yearlings they look terrible. Compared to his commercial Angus and Charolais cross calves of the same age standing on the other side of the fence...... they look even worse.
Much of the BLM will have multiple owners on the same area. So your neighbor's bull might very well breed your cow. Everyone tries to keep good bulls. Neighbor told another guy that he could turn out Wagyu bulls. Told the other guy he would get a premium for any F-1 Wagyu calves. The other guy said it isn't enough to make up for the light weight and the hassle keep new born calves alive. It went back and forth. The other guy said my FIL has some real ugly Brahma cross bulls I could turn out. The two of them decided to stick with well bred Angus and Charolais bulls.

 

[Aero]

I don't feed out to 27 months or 36 months like is often mentioned for wagyu -- I don't have a market to sustain those extra feed costs.

If this is the case, I can't imagine any positive return to going this direction unless it's for the seedstock potential. Without big premiums and direct marketing, it seems like you could do just as well with average AI angus terminal genetics. It seems odd to pick an extreme breed and only get a small portion of the value by not finishing them to excess - the entire point of wagyu/kobe.

 

[Travlr]

Progressive Cattle Sept. 2022
www.agproud.com/articles/55853-building-benefits-through-wagyu-cattle-and-crosses

Its the meat on the inside, not the look on the outside.

Real facts, one of the largest red wagyu breeders and branded beef programs currently is processing 25000 head a year and needs 5000 more ostriches, rhea, ect never had this problem. Probably 20000 plus are F1s. This is a 25 year program and still growing.

That's an interesting article... but I still have questions.

One of the issues I see in the industry (not just with wagyu) is the constant drive to breed to calving ease bulls. A little off topic for this thread. Calving ease bulls, in general and over generations, don't produce cows with the hips to birth calves easily.

I'm still not seeing the information I want about whether ALL wagyu (six or seven breeds) carry the hyper-marbling genetics.

 

[Rmc]

To be fair, that's part of the reason I started the Holstein/Hereford thread, I was thinking if I could make a bigger sized cattle and then add this scrawny breed to it and have some size it might be something to dabble in. I'm probably dreaming the wrong dream, but you just never know.

One of the few dairies left in the area is aiing some of his cows with wagyu and then feeds them out.has been doing it a
couple years.says he makes more money off them then his straight Holstein or any other cross he has tried.
If the general public can be convinced that the color of the hide makes for better beef. I see no reason why the wagyu can't continue to convince people to pay more money for it. I thing some of the push back against it is coming from angus breeders ect. I think some fear they will get out gimmicked and cut into their market share.

 

[Stickney94]

I'm still not seeing the information I want about whether ALL wagyu (six or seven breeds) carry the hyper-marbling genetics.

Originally Japanese cattle were work animals and selected as such. It's my understanding that over time selecting for better draft animals led to the unintended result of cattle with a genetic predisposition to higher marbling -- particularly in Japanese Black or red cattle. So your question could be answered as "yes they marble better than european breeds" or it could be "no they aren't all hyper-marbling" -- both might be correct. Just like in Angus cattle -- there are sires that marble better than others, there are sires that have more fertile female offspring than others, etc.

Up until recently there really weren't that many genetic lines of wagyu in the US. Michifuku for example is in a lot of pedigress close up.

To answer your question -- in my opinion -- not ALL wagyu cattle are hyper-marbling. Others may have a different opinion.

If this is the case, I can't imagine any positive return to going this direction unless it's for the seedstock potential. Without big premiums and direct marketing, it seems like you could do just as well with average AI angus terminal genetics. It seems odd to pick an extreme breed and only get a small portion of the value by not finishing them to excess - the entire point of wagyu/kobe.

I'm not sure how to respond to this other than that everyone needs to understand their own market.

 

[Son of Butch]

Up until recently there really weren't that many genetic lines of wagyu in the US.

Correction, genetic lines of wagyu in the US have remained the same.

All Wagyu in the US descend from the same gene pool from the wagyu cattle exported before Japan closed export loophole and declared Wagyu a national treasure. So no added genetic lines only next generation of the original group.

 

[Stickney94]

Correction, genetic lines of wagyu in the US have remained the same.

All Wagyu in the US descend from the same gene pool from the wagyu cattle exported before Japan closed export loophole and declared Wagyu a national treasure. So no new genetic lines only variations of the original foundation.

There have been a lot of embryos/straws coming into the US from wagyu herds in Australia. Obviously there are connections to the old sires/dams already here, but it's widened the genetic base from extremely narrow to less narrow.

 

[Ky hills]

No experience with Wagyus, but have heard of a few people that are raising or crossing them. From what I have seen in pictures not impressed in their phenotype at all, and doesn't appear that they add any positives on the maternal front either. It seems as though some Angus carcass type cattle are trending that way too, but still look better.
To me this is just another new and exciting fad, that unfortunately may catch on and have a shelf life in a similar sense of CAB and black hides at the expense of loosing ground in terms of gains in growth, and maternal traits just for the sake of carcass traits.

 

[shaz]

There have been a lot of embryos/straws coming into the US from wagyu herds in Australia. Obviously there are connections to the old sires/dams already here, but it's widened the genetic base from extremely narrow to less narrow.

Since you raise angus and wagyu I assume you've sample both products over the years. Which do you like better on the grill?

 

[TwoByrdsMG]

I am definitely not a fan.
Someone needs to explain to me why anyone needs/wants more marbling than a Choice or Choice+ steak. I have been told they are soooo much more moist and tender. Well, if I had 2" of fat around my hunk of steak and white specks of marbling (fat) all through the meat, I would "assume" it would be moist. AGE has more of an effect on tenderness than any other one thing - to the best of my knowledge.
Why would anyone pay more money for a tiny steak? Why would anyone sacrifice all that muscling just so they could get more marbling? I understand the general "consumer" is gullible and likes to listen the latest and greatest FAD, so they are willing to pay way more than the meat is worth.
If my 1 cow can raise me a 700# calf at 7 months of age on grass and hay (and mineral), how could I justify breeding her so that she will be lucky to give me a 500# calf? What about the skinny arse heifers you end up with? Oh, yeah, I can use her as a breeding animal. WooHoo!
These are my thoughts. Please try to convince me I'm all wrong.

Neighbor up the road contracted to have all her calves sold to a buyer. $3 a lb live weight for the F1 "Waygu". She bought a bull and has used him for three seasons so far. Had the heifers spayed too.

They expect them to be ready to butcher in 6-8 months for the first crop. She has been monitoring their progress along the way.

They look like the Jersey x Angus cattle that I've seen. I wouldn't want them in my pasture.

 

[Ky hills]

Neighbor up the road contracted to have all her calves sold to a buyer. $3 a lb live weight for the F1 "Waygu". She bought a bull and has used him for three seasons so far. Had the heifers spayed too.

They expect them to be ready to butcher in 6-8 months for the first crop. She has been monitoring their progress along the way.

They look like the Jersey x Angus cattle that I've seen. I wouldn't want them in my pasture.

From a brood cow standpoint, I'd much rather have a Jersey x Angus cow, than a Wagyu. With Jersey influence they at least can milk good and raise a good healthy looking calf when bred to a good beef breed bull.

 

[Rmc]

They look like the Jersey x Angus cattle that I've seen. I wouldn't want them in my pasture.

So what your cows look like and what your neighbors think is more important than making a profit?
Kind of reminds me of a situation at a old job . Customers would come to me to ask can you get me 50 or 100 of this particular item.
I would find them and give them a price. Many of them would say get it . I became know as the person to go to for odd or hard to find items.
Many of my coworkers where freaking out about why I was ordering in this and that and what was the customer going to do with them.
Many response was if they want it and I can get it and sell it at a profit I will do so I don't give a what they want it for or do with it after it is paid for.

 

[Stickney94]

Since you raise angus and wagyu I assume you've sample both products over the years. Which do you like better on the grill?

This is the question consumers care about. I have yet to have a customer ask about udder conformation and maternal ability. (although those things matter to all of us as cattle producers).

We have customers that prefer angus. And we have customers that prefer F1 wagyu. We built our herd on high quality angus and we pride ourselves on those genetics.

To your question -- if you are asking about steak -- you might be surprised that I'd choose F1 wagyu but honestly that would be a close decision bordering on a coin flip. If you are asking about a burger though -- then hands down wagyu.

 

[shaz]

This is the question consumers care about. I have yet to have a customer ask about udder conformation and maternal ability. (although those things matter to all of us as cattle producers).

We have customers that prefer angus. And we have customers that prefer F1 wagyu. We built our herd on high quality angus and we pride ourselves on those genetics.

To your question -- if you are asking about steak -- you might be surprised that I'd choose F1 wagyu but honestly that would be a close decision bordering on a coin flip. If you are asking about a burger though -- then hands down wagyu.

For me the question is what can you do on grass alone. If you can get good marbling with wagyu without much supplemental feed then it may worth worth putting up with slower growth which I assume would be the case.

 

[Travlr]

I still haven't gotten the #1 question answered...

Is ALL wagyu, ALL Japanese breed cattle, heavy marbling?

I mean, with all this hype about wagyu and there being something like seven distinct breeds... do they ALL marble and do the bulls throw crossbred calves that marble?

Or is it just a popular fad and people are paying ridiculous prices for the name, wagyu, without really getting any kind of improved meat? Are ALL F1 calves heavy marbling meat or only a percentage... or none at all?

 

[Stickney94]

Is ALL wagyu, ALL Japanese breed cattle, heavy marbling? NO

I mean, with all this hype about wagyu and there being something like seven distinct breeds... do they ALL marble and do the bulls throw crossbred calves that marble? NO

Or is it just a popular fad and people are paying ridiculous prices for the name, wagyu, without really getting any kind of improved meat? Are ALL F1 calves heavy marbling meat or only a percentage... or none at all? Yes and no. A percentage.

Your questions are now answered.

Black Wagyu imported in the US were "generally" high marbling. Red Wagyu/Akuashi are "generally" less marbling than black, but well more than European breeds and Akuashi have better growth. The other sub-breeds you mention are generally not involved in US wagyu production (that's again a general statement).

Black Wagyu have several lines -- some are high marbling/carcass and others are growth/muscle and some are maternal. There is a breeding method where you rotate breeding sires from these lines (often referred to as A, B, C, and D groups) that attempt to balance traits.


The marketing of Wagyu in the US is almost entirely using either F1 animals (50% wagyu) or animals with lesser percentage (25%). F1 animals can be very good though. But they will not be like the photos you see of highly marbled almost veal looking steaks.


Dave -- sorry for getting this thread down the wagyu rabbit hole

 

[Travlr]

Your questions are now answered.

Black Wagyu imported in the US were "generally" high marbling. Red Wagyu/Akuashi are "generally" less marbling than black, but well more than European breeds and Akuashi have better growth. The other sub-breeds you mention are generally not involved in US wagyu production (that's again a general statement).

Black Wagyu have several lines -- some are high marbling/carcass and others are growth/muscle and some are maternal. There is a breeding method where you rotate breeding sires from these lines (often referred to as A, B, C, and D groups) that attempt to balance traits.


The marketing of Wagyu in the US is almost entirely using either F1 animals (50% wagyu) or animals with lesser percentage (25%). F1 animals can be very good though. But they will not be like the photos you see of highly marbled almost veal looking steaks.


Dave -- sorry for getting this thread down the wagyu rabbit hole

Okay... so here is my take-away.

There are pretty much only black and red wagyu being used in North America. It sounds like the black are being used more often.

Only a limited number of wagyu carry the genetic predisposition to extreme marble, or to transfer their marbling ability to their offspring.

So there are probably a significant number of people, buyers of live cattle, potential breeders, and consumers, that are buying "wagyu" without knowing what they are buying, only buying the fad.

Pretty much what I was expecting.

And the thread is about wagyu...