Wagyu X Calves

[rocfarm]

Well, it's happened twice that someone has asked me to put a Wagyu bull on my cows now. The second instance was a neighbor that lives at the entrance of my place, so I'm interested as I live in the city and it'd be nice to have someone right there who's invested in keeping an eye on my cattle.

He says he can provide the bull and he'll buy the calves at #1 prices. I told him that if he was serious, I'd talk to him in depth about the idea in July. But I'd like to hear from anyone who has experience with this.

Near as I can tell, the pros are:

1) The calves are small. Essentially, every Wagyu bull is heifer safe, so I don't have to worry about calving problems.
2) There seems to be a strong market for the calves, and my neighbor is supposedly guaranteeing me he will buy them from me at high market prices (whatever the #1 price is at the time).
3) My neighbor has a large operation, so I can get hay and maybe some other feed inputs at a lower cost and sell it on to me at his cost (although I rarely feed hay).

The cons seem to be:

1) You can't raise your own replacements. Wagyu mommas don't milk well.
2) The weaning weights of the calves are lower, so not sure if the lower weight offsets the higher price.
3) I don't really enjoy looking at Wagyu cattle. I'd rather look at the British or Continentals.

Anyone out there with any experience with this model?

 

[Brute 23]

I'll post it here, also, for easy access. I don't have experience with Wagyu but have some with a simular business arrangement.

If they have a market for them paying that price would not be surprising to know where they come from.

We had a simular set up, pre-pandemic. We got highs plus some because there were additional costs for us. We were weaning and some times holding calves to time them going to the feed lot. We also had the trucking and other misc costs prepping them.

It was a good deal and I really enjoyed it. Just be sure to ask what all exactly you have to do on your end as far as calving times, vacs, holding, hauling, etc to receive that deal.

 

[Brute 23]

Also, depending on your exposure to them backing out, you may want a contract or up front money to cover them backing out when it's time for them to buy the calves.

When the pandemic hit, we had calves strung out through the production line and no movement on the end product because it was all based on live venues. The feed lot helped us move the calves on feed to other pens and we were able to turn young calves straight to auction with out any losses. We got lucky we were not in too terribly deep, yet.

With that cross, I'm not sure you would have the same luck if the buyer backed out and you had to dump them at the AB.

Just another consideration.

 

[Travlr]

Well, it's happened twice that someone has asked me to put a Wagyu bull on my cows now. The second instance was a neighbor that lives at the entrance of my place, so I'm interested as I live in the city and it'd be nice to have someone right there who's invested in keeping an eye on my cattle.

He says he can provide the bull and he'll buy the calves at #1 prices. I told him that if he was serious, I'd talk to him in depth about the idea in July. But I'd like to hear from anyone who has experience with this.

Near as I can tell, the pros are:

1) The calves are small. Essentially, every Wagyu bull is heifer safe, so I don't have to worry about calving problems.
2) There seems to be a strong market for the calves, and my neighbor is supposedly guaranteeing me he will buy them from me at high market prices (whatever the #1 price is at the time).
3) My neighbor has a large operation, so I can get hay and maybe some other feed inputs at a lower cost and sell it on to me at his cost (although I rarely feed hay).

The cons seem to be:

1) You can't raise your own replacements. Wagyu mommas don't milk well.
2) The weaning weights of the calves are lower, so not sure if the lower weight offsets the higher price.
3) I don't really enjoy looking at Wagyu cattle. I'd rather look at the British or Continentals.

Anyone out there with any experience with this model?

I don't know about Wagyu but just to tell a story... I sold a guy six cows bred to Belgian Blue with the guarantee that I would buy all the calves when they weaned at top-of-the-market prices. They turned out to be very good calves, which I expected, and I'm surprised the guy sold them back to me. I kept the two heifers and cut the bulls, which was probably a mistake at the time because there were other people interested in BB crosses at the time. Different than Wagyu for sure because the calves weaned heavy, at least as heavy as high normal.

So I hope your offer pans out.

 

[rocfarm]

Well, I don't do this for a living, and I haven't got much skin in the game. I have a high tolerance for risk as well, so I'm inclined to be amenable to the offer if no one else posts that these things are a train wreck.

I forgot to add that another plus would be I don't have to buy or maintain a bull. If he just puts the bull out there for breeding season each year, that'd pretty much mean I could add another cow and save on feeding a bull.

I'll post if I do it and how it goes.

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

With Wagyu cattle it depends upon which breed ( there are two breeds in the United States ) you're getting and also which prefecture (area) the breed came from. There is also a difference in taste depending upon where the breed originated from.
For example if they have a lot of Tajima blood and they will be on the smaller size. However we have a couple of cows that are over 1500 lb and bulls can get over 2000 lb.
It's all about where they came from and there are many big differences depending upon the area.
If you're getting Japanese black they are a lot different than the Akaushi.
As far as calves we have had them from 49 lb to 85 lb. Most of our wean over 500 lb at 200 days.
We have Akaushi that has huge bag are an excellent mama and a great milker.
As far as your own replacement heifers that's what we do for a living and been very successful in raising heifers and have never had to supplement milk or colo, although I did have to show a few calves that were born by heifers where the tit was.
IF you believe in epds or ebvs then you can check their pedigree and eliminate any bad milkers. The same goes for CW, Marbling, CE etc.
We had Angus at first then we had Wagyu x Angus cross.
Now we run only full blood Wagyu.
The one thing I do know for sure about Wagyu, there is a lot of misconceptions regarding these animals.
And yes some Japanese black look like skinny dairy cows with no bag !
It takes a little longer to finish them, we have not butchered one under 18 months, and prefer to go 24-26 months.
All of the Wagyu that I have been around have been very docile and respond very well to humans.
It does take time to get your genetics right we've spent 5 years getting our girls to where we wanted them genetically.
We sell for $5,000 including processing for a whole carcass.
Replacement heifers are $5,000 to $12,000 depending on pedigree.
If you're interested in looking at some pictures of the differences, we're on Facebook, Google or Mountaintowncreekranch.com.
I am certainly not an expert on Japanese cattle but I have spent years studying their genetics.
This is our herd prospect, he gets his BSE next month. He was 8 months and 840 lb in this picture

 

[wbvs58]

One of the biggest drawbacks of Wagyu for the smaller guy is marketing the calves, if you are not having them processed and selling to the public then an arrangement like this would be good. For a small producer buying a Wagyu bull and then selling them at the sale barn would be a disaster. This fellow must have a good market for the calves.

Ken

 

[tex452]

One of the biggest drawbacks of Wagyu for the smaller guy is marketing the calves, if you are not having them processed and selling to the public then an arrangement like this would be good. For a small producer buying a Wagyu bull and then selling them at the sale barn would be a disaster. This fellow must have a good market for the calves.

Ken

I agree with this, I have a neighbor that has wagyu bulls on mostly angus/brangus cows, the calves don't look good at all, the cows are pretty rough also, they don't believe in using dewormer.
If your neighbor has the market for them it will probably work, but if they are ran through the ring at what I saw, they would take a beating.

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

Yes you are correct it's a specialty market.
However I have sold a bull to a terminal operation in Texas that grows them out for JBS. So they are used outside of a specialty market.

 

[rocfarm]

With Wagyu cattle it depends upon which breed ( there are two breeds in the United States ) you're getting and also which prefecture (area) the breed came from. There is also a difference in taste depending upon where the breed originated from.
For example if they have a lot of Tajima blood and they will be on the smaller size. However we have a couple of cows that are over 1500 lb and bulls can get over 2000 lb.
It's all about where they came from and there are many big differences depending upon the area.
If you're getting Japanese black they are a lot different than the Akaushi.
As far as calves we have had them from 49 lb to 85 lb. Most of our wean over 500 lb at 200 days.
We have Akaushi that has huge bag are an excellent mama and a great milker.
As far as your own replacement heifers that's what we do for a living and been very successful in raising heifers and have never had to supplement milk or colo, although I did have to show a few calves that were born by heifers where the tit was.
IF you believe in epds or ebvs then you can check their pedigree and eliminate any bad milkers. The same goes for CW, Marbling, CE etc.
We had Angus at first then we had Wagyu x Angus cross.
Now we run only full blood Wagyu.
The one thing I do know for sure about Wagyu, there is a lot of misconceptions regarding these animals.
And yes some Japanese black look like skinny dairy cows with no bag !
It takes a little longer to finish them, we have not butchered one under 18 months, and prefer to go 24-26 months.
All of the Wagyu that I have been around have been very docile and respond very well to humans.
It does take time to get your genetics right we've spent 5 years getting our girls to where we wanted them genetically.
We sell for $5,000 including processing for a whole carcass.
Replacement heifers are $5,000 to $12,000 depending on pedigree.
If you're interested in looking at some pictures of the differences, we're on Facebook, Google or Mountaintowncreekranch.com.
I am certainly not an expert on Japanese cattle but I have spent years studying their genetics.
This is our herd prospect, he gets his BSE next month. He was 8 months and 840 lb in this picture

Thanks for the great response. I'm not the type to go flying into anything with a lot of cash. Just shooting to have 10 calves a year born on my 160 acre place. Doing my operation on the cheap with no debt. January 9th and I still haven't fed hay. Not planning on it, either, unless the mommas I have left after my recent drought cull look bad on Feb 1. But my calves are fat and growing well as of this week, so my low-input model could be sustainable. I'll be buying sale barn cattle to be my newest mommas (except for the two black heifers I've already got). I already told the neighbor my cattle are not front pasture, but he looked at them himself and said that wasn't a problem.

But it seems from everyone's posts that I should

1) Ask for Japanese black and probably shoot for him giving me one that throws 75 lb calves.
a) If the guy backs out, at least the calves will be black for the sale barn.
b) 75 lbs calves should be well inside safe for calving ease.
c) The 'large for Wagyu' 75 lbs calves will probably be a little bit bigger at weaning.

2) Buy Angus replacements.
a) I'm looking at picking up a few head soon so will try to go black as Angus x Wagyu seems to be what everyone is doing.
b) If I go with this deal I'll cull my bull and any open cows in July and put that money back into Angus replacements.

3) Make sure he backgrounds them himself and has the market for them, as I can't handle that as a small producer.
a) He says he has his own feedlot, so this shouldn't be a problem.
b) I think he runs in excess of a couple hundred head himself as well, so could work.

If anyone else has an opinion, I'd appreciated it.

Still haven't heard anyone say it's gonna be a train wreck. At least this ain't belted galloways.

 

[rocfarm]

One of the biggest drawbacks of Wagyu for the smaller guy is marketing the calves, if you are not having them processed and selling to the public then an arrangement like this would be good. For a small producer buying a Wagyu bull and then selling them at the sale barn would be a disaster. This fellow must have a good market for the calves.

Ken

Says he does. He feeds them out himself and already has the channel. I'd just sell him whatever calves I had at weaning.

Also, he has to provide the bull, not me. Not willing to spend 5000 to 10000 on a bull for a herd of 10 cows. Doesn't pencil.

Him providing the bull is why I'm really interested. It means I can only have one on the place for 2 months out of the year. That's cheaper than carrying one myself. Figure I can run an extra cow and get an extra calf by not having a bull around most of the time.

 

[rocfarm]

@Mountaintown Creek Ranch You have some good looking cattle. Some day I'll have some front-pasture cattle like this, but my back-pasture cattle are going to have to pay for them!

 

[Brute 23]

The thing I liked the most was seeing the animals go through the whole process. We see it with heifers but getting input from the feedlot, then the butcher, and then the consumer was very interesting. That alone was worth the experience, imo.

 

[rocfarm]

The thing I liked the most was seeing the animals go through the whole process. We see it with heifers but getting input from the feedlot, then the butcher, and then the consumer was very interesting. That alone was worth the experience, imo.

Yes, I do think that knowing people that are doing more complicated/integrated things than me will be fun. Even if this doesn't pan out, I'm kind of interested in retaining ownership through feedlot agreements. I don't think I'd make a lot, but it'd be fun to see how things went.

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

View attachment 39322@Mountaintown Creek Ranch You have some good looking cattle. Some day I'll have some front-pasture cattle like this, but my back-pasture cattle are going to have to pay for them!

Thank you !

 

[10-e-c-dirtfarmer]

Wagyu/Jersey cross is the way to go

 

[Brute 23]

When we were doing this I started reading a bunch on meat quality and going places and talking to people all about it.

Some thing this always stuck out is most every one agrees meat quality is genetic, even with in breeds. It's not a new thing. It has existed for years, we just didn't emphasize it. Now, when breeds are trying to find the lines with better tenderness and things, there is always a link with easy keeping cattle.

That's not some thing foreign to a lot of producers. Even if you are buying AB cows or raising your own, easy keepers seem to have better meat quality. It's kind of a win-win for a producer.

Going back to @Jeanne - Simme Valley comment in the other thread about marbling. If you are selling beef, most consumers recognize tenderness and it can be a fairly easy task to head in that direction.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

When we were doing this I started reading a bunch on meat quality and going places and talking to people all about it.

Some thing this always stuck out is most every one agrees meat quality is genetic, even with in breeds. It's not a new thing. It has existed for years, we just didn't emphasize it. Now, when breeds are trying to find the lines with better tenderness and things, there is always a link with easy keeping cattle.

That's not some thing foreign to a lot of producers. Even if you are buying AB cows or raising your own, easy keepers seem to have better meat quality. It's kind of a win-win for a producer.

Going back to @Jeanne - Simme Valley comment in the other thread about marbling. If you are selling beef, most consumers recognize tenderness and it can be a fairly easy task to head in that direction.

Yes, the Nat'l beef board did research years ago and TENDERNESS was the #1 requirement for people to have a pleasant eating experience.

 

[Stickney94]

I may have missed it -- but what kind of cows do you have? Wagyu crosses out of good angus cattle can wean off just fine (genetics). But they can also be runts . I've used black wagyu (AI) for several years on heifers. Yes they tend to be calving ease -- but that isn't a guarantee either -- have pulled a few.
If this proposal satisfies some other goals/priorities it may be mutually beneficial. But get a contract.

 

[rocfarm]

I may have missed it -- but what kind of cows do you have? Wagyu crosses out of good angus cattle can wean off just fine (genetics). But they can also be runts . I've used black wagyu (AI) for several years on heifers. Yes they tend to be calving ease -- but that isn't a guarantee either -- have pulled a few.
If this proposal satisfies some other goals/priorities it may be mutually beneficial. But get a contract.

I have a motley herd. All commercial cattle bought at the local auction. Mostly red angus/angus/Hereford cows that average around 1000 lbs (my ideal cow is one that fluctuates between 950lbs to 1100 lbs throughout the year), but have one first-calf corriente that's probably only 650 lbs soaking wet. My current bull is a red angus bull that I raised myself. Only 15 months old. He'll probably only max out at 1400 to 1500 lbs, and his confirmation is only average, but he's heifer safe, so I plan to use him this coming winter on a few of my heifer calves from last fall. He should have the breeding done for my mature cows already this year and I might keep back some of his heifers from this fall, but we'll see.

In the end, my goal is 10 calves a year. I want to utilize mostly stockpile and tubs to get through any summer slumps/and the winter months. If stockpile is insufficient, I am fine with just culling heavily or even selling all the cattle and then repurchasing new cattle when things green back up.

Right now I am way under capacity because of drought cullling. If it works out, I'll sell the bull and any open cows, buy some local angus genetics to boost my cow herd to about 10 angus or angus X mommas and let the guy put the Wagyu bull on and go from there. Still thinking I'll just purchase replacements then, not try to keep any replacements out of the Wagyu X cattle.

Of course, if I'd spent a lot of time and effort building the genetics I want, I wouldn't consider this.

I'm an amateur/hobby farmer. Hunting is just as important as cattle on my place as well. So I'm not going to be hurting too bad if it doesn't work out. Sustainable profit is my goal, not any 'ideal' cattle herd, or, even maximizing profit through intensive ranching.

I'll talk to him about that contract.