Black Herefords

[Brandonm22]

then why does CHB beef a select brand win every taste test. I've read stuff that basically says hereford beef eats as good as select as Certified "black hided" beef does at choice. i've read stuff that says there are differences in how a herford lays fat into the muscle different than that of "Angus" that is not accounted for in our current grading system. but even if that was all gospel.... how much energy, how much corn would the industry save selling select... how much more would average kill weights drop and the turn over in a feedlot shorten. how much fat could we trim? would the angus breed have lost its do-ability reaching the grading quality capabilities under our current system? i don't have my hands on the data i am talking about but i will try and get it monday. go ahead - let me have it.

As Frankie pointed out we already did THAT. Until sometime around ~1978 (guessing on that date) what we call low Choice was actually graded as high Good (we also changed the name from Good to Select to increase demand) because all those European oxen everybody we was importing from Europe couldn't grade Choice, thus the percentage of cattle grading choice was dropping as a result. That is when Angus pitched a fit about the grade change and formed CAB using the old Choice requirements. Interestingly the nation's cattle at the time, were a lot smaller than what we have now so since the change we have actually INCREASED days on feed and final kill weights substantially. The funny thing is that Angus by itself has become a descriptive beef term. Now we even have beef branded as 'Angus Select'.

 

[jcarkie]

herefords will always have a place because they are good cattle, i like them better than any, but so are eared cattle. i am not an angus enthusiast but my next bull will be a black gelbvieh more than likely because 10 cents a lb is 10 cents. on the baldy heifers black brings more, they don't have to be angus just look that way. that way my ponds will be full and the shade will be used more.

 

[alftn]

I think it is quite possible for Black Herefords, to GO the same as Polled did. If they have the same quality as the reds,they should...They will make great terminial Bulls, ie.

1 Cross with red angus and you get black baldies (if homo) they will be 100 % black
2 They cross as well with any breed as the Red herefords do, Now you have a choice , PEOPLE LIKE CHOICES
3 As long a Black Angus is THE CHOICE in cattle bussiness,cattle will keep turning BLACK...

When you get LOW QUALITY blacks, that make a large part of cattle sales, the it might swing back the other way, " AFTER ALL THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BE BLACK ANGUS TO '' LOOK'' BLACK ANGUS...

 

[Dixieangus]

black hereford now i got to see a pic

 

[1982vett]

black hereford now i got to see a pic

Here ya go Dixie

http://www.blackhereford.com/

 

[stockman12]

They ain't no black hereford


They are a CROSSBREED

 

[Brandonm22]

They ain't no black hereford


They are a CROSSBREED

I have to admit that I really liked this idea when it was just a theory. Seeing it in practice though makes me more than a little gunshy.
http://www.smithsonfarms.com/bulls_for_sale
Scroll down the list till you get to the solid black bull you can buy for $1700. A "Black Hereford" with no whiteface?????????? That is almost sacriligious.

This idea COULD work; but it would take somebody who really understood the cattle, understood DNA, was absolutely loaded, had a lot of cattle to work with, and could devote 30 or 40 years into fixing the right type......ie really good cattle that are homozygous black and homozygous whiteface. This isn't market ready YET but they are rushing it to market before it is "right" because they need sales.

 

[AudieWyoming]

Sorry but that's just a half baked attempt to create and sell a breed association..........with out the breed! @

black hereford now i got to see a pic

Here ya go Dixie
http://www.blackhereford.com/

 

[Hereford76]

They ain't no black hereford


They are a CROSSBREED

I have to admit that I really liked this idea when it was just a theory. Seeing it in practice though makes me more than a little gunshy.
http://www.smithsonfarms.com/bulls_for_sale
Scroll down the list till you get to the solid black bull you can buy for $1700. A "Black Hereford" with no whiteface?????????? That is almost sacriligious.

This idea COULD work; but it would take somebody who really understood the cattle, understood DNA, was absolutely loaded, had a lot of cattle to work with, and could devote 30 or 40 years into fixing the right type......ie really good cattle that are homozygous black and homozygous whiteface. This isn't market ready YET but they are rushing it to market before it is "right" because they need sales.

watch out - don't anyone tip your hand!

 

[KNERSIE]

Here goes my arrogance again, I'm sure alftn will like the opportunity to have another go, but anyway here goes..

If this is what the black herefords can offer, I'm happy to breed my red 3rd world herefords. Even funnier is that the worse the chicken legs and sickle hocks are the heavier the price tag. This dandy is handsomely priced at $2000.

It looks like yet another classical case of the people involved not knowing enough or understanding enough of genetics to make their idea a practical reality.

 

[aussie_cowgirl]

What a stunner... for only $1600

 

[dun]

Knersie, Did you photoshop the picture to completly eliminate it's butt?

 

[KNERSIE]

Knersie, Did you photoshop the picture to completly eliminate it's butt?

No, I am afraid it must have been the black influence that accomplished that. ;-)

 

[Keren]

ok maybe I'm a little bit dumb but I have been wondering for a while

Black herefords, and its the same with black simmentals

they both promote their breed as having advantages in several traits due to HYBRID VIGOR.

Now, I understand that yes, in the first generation of crossing an angus over a hereford or simm cow, that the calves will be hardier, grow quicker and faster, due to hybrid vigor/heterosis.

BUT what I dont understand, is that if you are breeding black baldy to black baldy, so if you put a black baldy bull over black baldy cows, you dont have the heterosis, anf the calves will grow the same as straight bred angus or hford calves.

I always thought you would lose the heterosis in that case, you cant cement it in.

So why the desire to breed these composite cattle to one another ... wouldnt we be far better off keeping them as an F1 cross????

Edit to add - those cattle look schitzen

Edit to add - sorry to be blunt

 

[dun]

ok maybe I'm a little bit dumb but I have been wondering for a while

Black herefords, and its the same with black simmentals

they both promote their breed as having advantages in several traits due to HYBRID VIGOR.

Now, I understand that yes, in the first generation of crossing an angus over a hereford or simm cow, that the calves will be hardier, grow quicker and faster, due to hybrid vigor/heterosis.

BUT what I dont understand, is that if you are breeding black baldy to black baldy, so if you put a black baldy bull over black baldy cows, you dont have the heterosis, anf the calves will grow the same as straight bred angus or hford calves.

I always thought you would lose the heterosis in that case, you cant cement it in.

So why the desire to breed these composite cattle to one another ... wouldnt we be far better off keeping them as an F1 cross????

Edit to add - those cattle look schitzen

Edit to add - sorry to be blunt

The whole misguided point of incorporating black is for the generation of black calves. Doesn;t have anything to do with improving the breed. In the US, as you're aware, black calves will generally outsell other colors in some areas of the country.
You are correct that an F2 will have less heterosis then an F1

 

[KNERSIE]

Every time I've seen an attempt at black herefords I can't help but wonder what they've used as parent stock. Surely if you use good hereford cows and AI them to a good angus bull and breed back to good hereford AI bulls whilst selecting for the black factor you'll have better results even in the second generation than what is being advertised on that website? The cattle advertised doesn't even remotely resemble a good hereford or a good angus or a good bovine of any other nondescript breed.

 

[novatech]

i'd rather just use the right black bull terminal and not screw with my cows. i don't need to read an ultrasound report, kill sheet, or whatever to pick out the cattle at home that excel in carcass quality. i can see it visually, i can see it in cow bcs scores at wean, i can see it in the face of the cows that stand in the corner of the winter pasture begging me to feed them, i can see it in the list of cows that makes up the 1.5% dry on average. i think our breed has acceptable carcass quality where it is. it doesn't take an exceptional herd to meet REA/CWT of atleat 100 or to grade high select low choice.

For the people like me that don't have that skill.
http://www.hereford.org/static/files/ss_s10_Carcass.pdf
Although I am a firm believer in cross breeding for the best terminal, the use of this type of information in your breeding program can assure you that you may never need to use a black bull in the future. When you use the best selection from both sides of cross breeding you can not help but get better beef. Choosing cattle based strictly on color, horns scurs,or polls, in my opinion is secondary to the final goal of raising beef. These are simply convenience or marketing traits and should not be ones primary concern.
In some research I have found that less than 10% of all pure Angus qualifies for CAB (Feel free to correct me.) This brings up the question. What is the #1 cross that qualifies for CAB and why?
In another thread it was stated that Hereford has a golden opportunity to take back some market share. I believe this is true. But it cannot be done unless information like the link I posted above is used. If all Hereford breeders continue doing business as usual Hereford will not go forward it will actually slide backward. Nothing stands still.

 

[dun]

Every time I've seen an attempt at black herefords I can't help but wonder what they've used as parent stock. Surely if you use good hereford cows and AI them to a good angus bull and breed back to good hereford AI bulls whilst selecting for the black factor you'll have better results even in the second generation than what is being advertised on that website? The cattle advertised doesn't even remotely resemble a good hereford or a good angus or a good bovine of any other nondescript breed.

In a way I think they
re doing more for Hereford and Angus then they are for the black hereford. Anyone with eyes can see that these are pretty poor specimens and that many black baldys are superior. If your herd is black use a Hereford if it's whitefaced use an angus. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Brandonm22]

For the people like me that don't have that skill.
http://www.hereford.org/static/files/ss_s10_Carcass.pdf
Although I am a firm believer in cross breeding for the best terminal, the use of this type of information in your breeding program can assure you that you may never need to use a black bull in the future.

I agree. I don't think there is anything wrong per se in not actually selecting FOR carcass traits or even for not really giving that weight in the selection decisions, but this is 2010. Ultrasound has been around for well over 20 years. If you are going to be serious about selling bulls, I think you need to be able to provide the ultrasound data to a buyer who asks for it (and I realize there are people who have sold bulls for forty years who have NEVER had a buyer ask for the ultrasound data). I think you kinda need to have that information yourself just to see how you are trending over time. Even if you know you are going to cross back to Angus for the carcass traits, there is still the potential for improvement of performance on the bottom side of the cross.

 

[novatech]

For the people like me that don't have that skill.
http://www.hereford.org/static/files/ss_s10_Carcass.pdf
Although I am a firm believer in cross breeding for the best terminal, the use of this type of information in your breeding program can assure you that you may never need to use a black bull in the future.

I agree. I don't think there is anything wrong per se in not actually selecting FOR carcass traits or even for not really giving that weight in the selection decisions, but this is 2010. Ultrasound has been around for well over 20 years. If you are going to be serious about selling bulls, I think you need to be able to provide the ultrasound data to a buyer who asks for it (and I realize there are people who have sold bulls for forty years who have NEVER had a buyer ask for the ultrasound data). I think you kinda need to have that information yourself just to see how you are trending over time. Even if you know you are going to cross back to Angus for the carcass traits, there is still the potential for improvement of performance on the bottom side of the cross.

I have to agree with you on this. When breeding you can only acquire the potential of having quality by using the paper work, DNA testing or what ever other tools are at ones disposal. The reality may be something entirely different.
My personal opinion is that the quest for black hair has had a negative effect on the cattle industry as a hole, including Angus. The marketing is solely based on the ignorance of people as to beef production and quality. I feel the Black Hereford is a good example of this.