Black Herefords

[Herefords.US]

Did anyone, beside me, watch the J & N Ranch Sale yesterday? The ranch owner made an interesting speech at the beginning of the sale! Your thoughts on the comments he made?

George

 

[Hereford76]

no - what were the comments

 

[Herefords.US]

In summary - "Eventually, ALL Herefords will be black!"

He made a pretty good case! Especially if the Angus folks keep allowing any cattle with a "black hide" to keep jumping on their CAB bandwagon.

George

 

[dun]

In summary - "Eventually, ALL Herefords will be black!"

Sales hype!

Not to be punny, but it will be a balck day indeed when all breeds are black

 

[JHH]

In summary - "Eventually, ALL Herefords will be black!"

He made a pretty good case! Especially if the Angus folks keep allowing any cattle with a "black hide" to keep jumping on their CAB bandwagon.

George

Bet mine wont be. What about you H76?

Does seem to be catching on a little. But I really dont understand it. We have 1 breeder close to me. He got in about 2005 and the first calf crop from his rather expensive black hereford was not a plesant experience to put it nicely.

 

[Herefords.US]

I realize it was sales hype, but it was a skillful presentation - and I appreciated the skill even if I didn't fully buy the whole message.

By "all", I'm sure he mean't that the number of Red Herefords left would be "statistically insignificant." There's always going to be some "diehards", like me, that's going to keep some Herefords the way they are!

And, Dun, the obvious counter to his argument is the success that Red Angus have enjoyed over the past few years.

George

 

[Hereford76]

my thoughts - makes me wonder what our assoc leadership is waiting for. we have the data and tools to make black herefords a non issue along with the "cherry picking" of our cattle to cab. but to me it looks like we are just going to sit back and watch it happen. i'll say it again - what would substituting select for choice do for the beef industry overall? and think about that before you go ahead and school me on it. the industry for sure and with the economy maybe the consumer is ready.

 

[Frankie]

In summary - "Eventually, ALL Herefords will be black!"

He made a pretty good case! Especially if the Angus folks keep allowing any cattle with a "black hide" to keep jumping on their CAB bandwagon.

George

Hype? Probably. I see they averaged $2630 on the 60 bulls they sold last year. Did they have more bulls this year? How was the average?

The Hereford Assn CHOSE to go with a lower quality beef in setting up the CHB specs. I can only assume they didn't think they could make Choice or Choice+ work for the breed? IMO, you can't blame producers for selling into a program that puts more money in their pocket. Heck, I'd think YOU would appreciate that. :lol:

 

[Frankie]

my thoughts - makes me wonder what our assoc leadership is waiting for. we have the data and tools to make black herefords a non issue along with the "cherry picking" of our cattle to cab. but to me it looks like we are just going to sit back and watch it happen. i'll say it again - what would substituting select for choice do for the beef industry overall? and think about that before you go ahead and school me on it. the industry for sure and with the economy maybe the consumer is ready.

Well, you're going to educate me on this. Every beef survey I ever saw showed consumers chosing Choice beef over Select beef. Do you think calling Select "Choice" would make people like it better?

We tried that when the USDA lowered grading standards and beef consumption tanked. I haven't seen a graph, but I wouldn't be surprised in beef consumption has pretty well followed the increase in CAB being sold. I do think CAB has helped consumers identify higher quality beef. It's certainly spawned dozens of branded beef programs (including CHB) that consumers can use to select the beef that best satisfies them, from Laura's Lean and Nolan Ryan to CAB.

 

[Hereford76]

my thoughts - makes me wonder what our assoc leadership is waiting for. we have the data and tools to make black herefords a non issue along with the "cherry picking" of our cattle to cab. but to me it looks like we are just going to sit back and watch it happen. i'll say it again - what would substituting select for choice do for the beef industry overall? and think about that before you go ahead and school me on it. the industry for sure and with the economy maybe the consumer is ready.

Well, you're going to educate me on this. Every beef survey I ever saw showed consumers chosing Choice beef over Select beef. Do you think calling Select "Choice" would make people like it better?

We tried that when the USDA lowered grading standards and beef consumption tanked. I haven't seen a graph, but I wouldn't be surprised in beef consumption has pretty well followed the increase in CAB being sold. I do think CAB has helped consumers identify higher quality beef. It's certainly spawned dozens of branded beef programs (including CHB) that consumers can use to select the beef that best satisfies them, from Laura's Lean and Nolan Ryan to CAB.

then why does CHB beef a select brand win every taste test. I've read stuff that basically says hereford beef eats as good as select as Certified "black hided" beef does at choice. i've read stuff that says there are differences in how a herford lays fat into the muscle different than that of "Angus" that is not accounted for in our current grading system. but even if that was all gospel.... how much energy, how much corn would the industry save selling select... how much more would average kill weights drop and the turn over in a feedlot shorten. how much fat could we trim? would the angus breed have lost its do-ability reaching the grading quality capabilities under our current system? i don't have my hands on the data i am talking about but i will try and get it monday. go ahead - let me have it.

 

[Herefords.US]

Heck, I'd think YOU would appreciate that. :lol:

I do, frankie!

The question is where this goes in the future.

Is the word "Angus" going to be associated with a breed? Or is it going to become primarily associated to a beef product of a certain standard and quality and the underlying breed(s) is really unimportant.

You know I've stayed out of these CAB discussions in the past, but I'd say you Angus guys hold a majority of the chips. Are you going to continue sharing the wealth with any old black-hided cattle breeder - regardless of breed - because their cattle can grade and qualify for the CAB program and other Angus based programs? Or are you going to demand tighter restrictions, in regard to the genetic and breed make-up, for the cattle that can qualify for these premium programs?

If you're going to continue to share the wealth, I'd say Black Herefords might be worth looking at! Either way, I'd say the Hereford folks ought to be working on their beef marketing programs.

I didn't see averages, but their Black Hereford bulls sold well...certainly for a good bit more than comparable red Hereford bulls of that quality would sell for...and the females really sold high!

George

 

[Frankie]

my thoughts - makes me wonder what our assoc leadership is waiting for. we have the data and tools to make black herefords a non issue along with the "cherry picking" of our cattle to cab. but to me it looks like we are just going to sit back and watch it happen. i'll say it again - what would substituting select for choice do for the beef industry overall? and think about that before you go ahead and school me on it. the industry for sure and with the economy maybe the consumer is ready.

Well, you're going to educate me on this. Every beef survey I ever saw showed consumers chosing Choice beef over Select beef. Do you think calling Select "Choice" would make people like it better?

We tried that when the USDA lowered grading standards and beef consumption tanked. I haven't seen a graph, but I wouldn't be surprised in beef consumption has pretty well followed the increase in CAB being sold. I do think CAB has helped consumers identify higher quality beef. It's certainly spawned dozens of branded beef programs (including CHB) that consumers can use to select the beef that best satisfies them, from Laura's Lean and Nolan Ryan to CAB.

then why does CHB beef a select brand win every taste test. I've read stuff that basically says hereford beef eats as good as select as Certified "black hided" beef does at choice. i've read stuff that says there are differences in how a herford lays fat into the muscle different than that of "Angus" that is not accounted for in our current grading system. but even if that was all gospel.... how much energy, how much corn would the industry save selling select... how much more would average kill weights drop and the turn over in a feedlot shorten. how much fat could we trim? would the angus breed have lost its do-ability reaching the grading quality capabilities under our current system? i don't have my hands on the data i am talking about but i will try and get it monday. go ahead - let me have it.

Let you have what? You're the one throwing out mysterious comments about "substituting" Select for Choice. If you want to take Hereford studies and reports at face value, go for it. I'll simply point out that CAB sold well over half a billion pounds of product last year. How much did CHB sell? I'll point out that consumers pay more of their hard earned dollars for Choice beef over Select. Why? Because it tastes better. Before the influx of Continental cattle, beef was king. A few years of lower quality beef, the packers asked the USDA to lower grading standards and beef consumption dropped. I'm not saying that's the only reason, but I strongly believe it was a driving force.

Do you think consumers care what it costs us to get an animal to grade Choice? You're apparently ignoring where the money comes from that you put in your pocket. It comes from consumers who buy beef at the supermarket or the restaurant. Some producers look for ways to cut costs; others also look for a way to add value to their product.

 

[Frankie]

Heck, I'd think YOU would appreciate that. :lol:

I do, frankie!

The question is where this goes in the future.

Is the word "Angus" going to be associated with a breed? Or is it going to become primarily associated to a beef product of a certain standard and quality and the underlying breed(s) is really unimportant.

You know I've stayed out of these CAB discussions in the past, but I'd say you Angus guys hold a majority of the chips. Are you going to continue sharing the wealth with any old black-hided cattle breeder - regardless of breed - because their cattle can grade and qualify for the CAB program and other Angus based programs? Or are you going to demand tighter restrictions, in regard to the genetic and breed make-up, for the cattle that can qualify for these premium programs?

If you're going to continue to share the wealth, I'd say Black Herefords might be worth looking at! Either way, I'd say the Hereford folks ought to be working on their beef marketing programs.

I didn't see averages, but their Black Hereford bulls sold well...certainly for a good bit more than comparable red Hereford bulls of that quality would sell for...and the females really sold high!

George

Did they have more than 60 bulls this year? And were they all home raised or are they allowing people who buy breeding stock from them to sell through their sale, too?

Sales of CAB have always been nagged by lack of supply. 15-20 years ago about 18% qualified for the branded product. As other breeds started turning black, that percentage dropped pretty low. Now that there are actually more ANGUS working around the country, the % is moving up again. The Assn, feedlots and packers are all collecting a lot of data on generic black cattle and Angus bloodlines. Sooner or later, I think somebody will make a move to cut out the wasted time and effort that goes into messing with generic black cattle that will never grade high.

I've been told that there are Hereford breeders doing quite well by selling directly to CHB. I suppose they're age and source verified, as well as genetically identified.

 

[iowa hawkeyes]

Do any of you get Hereford America ? see it at http://www.herefordamerica.com This months issue has 2 good letters to the editor. One about effective advertising and one about black Herefords. For a few months the Black Hereford Assn bought advertising in the mag. That kinda burns a few ppl and they aren't afraid to let ppl know. To quote from the magazine
Dear Editor,
I have liked your magazine. I like Hereford cattle. I have raised them all of my life and I am now in my nineties. Recently there has been some advertising of so-call "Black Herefords". Let me tell you, there are NO BLACK HEREFORDS. Period. Herefords are RED with white faces and white markings. Calling any bovines Black Herefords is just as stupid as calling camels, elephants.
Just letting you know my feelings.
Sincerely,
George Larson
Custer, MT

I don't know Mr. Larson at all but I totally agree with him. It's just crossbreeding if you have a black Hereford. No reason to start registering them.

 

[dun]

And, Dun, the obvious counter to his argument is the success that Red Angus have enjoyed over the past few years.

George

Since we raise Red Angus I thought it would be a bit snotty of me to bring it up, glad you did

 

[Hereford76]

Let you have what? You're the one throwing out mysterious comments about "substituting" Select for Choice. If you want to take Hereford studies and reports at face value, go for it. I'll simply point out that CAB sold well over half a billion pounds of product last year. How much did CHB sell? I'll point out that consumers pay more of their hard earned dollars for Choice beef over Select. Why? Because it tastes better. Before the influx of Continental cattle, beef was king. A few years of lower quality beef, the packers asked the USDA to lower grading standards and beef consumption dropped. I'm not saying that's the only reason, but I strongly believe it was a driving force.

Do you think consumers care what it costs us to get an animal to grade Choice? You're apparently ignoring where the money comes from that you put in your pocket. It comes from consumers who buy beef at the supermarket or the restaurant. Some producers look for ways to cut costs; others also look for a way to add value to their product

i guess i'm just a little gun shy anymore. not trying to be mysterious - maybe a little innuendo every now and then that no one ever picks up on. beef consumption tanked when the usda lowered grading standards and we were left with a system that rewards off a grid for marbling. what has that done to our cowherd. i am a firm believer for every step we make in grading capability we take another step back at home with do-ability. my whole point with the select comment was - what if we can breed cattle, regardless of breed, that eat as well at select under our current grading system. maybe i'm wrong and you can fill me in with the cattle that are doing both. but right now i can add value to my end product by breeding marbling into to my cattle at what cost.

 

[JHH]

Who says herefords dont marble?

http://www.breedingcattlepage.com/heref ... mepage.htm

Their cows do a good job also. They havent fallen apart at my place.

 

[Hereford76]

i'd rather just use the right black bull terminal and not screw with my cows. i don't need to read an ultrasound report, kill sheet, or whatever to pick out the cattle at home that excel in carcass quality. i can see it visually, i can see it in cow bcs scores at wean, i can see it in the face of the cows that stand in the corner of the winter pasture begging me to feed them, i can see it in the list of cows that makes up the 1.5% dry on average. i think our breed has acceptable carcass quality where it is. it doesn't take an exceptional herd to meet REA/CWT of atleat 100 or to grade high select low choice.

 

[JHH]

i'd rather just use the right black bull terminal and not screw with my cows. i don't need to read an ultrasound report, kill sheet, or whatever to pick out the cattle at home that excel in carcass quality. i can see it visually, i can see it in cow bcs scores at wean, i can see it in the face of the cows that stand in the corner of the winter pasture begging me to feed them, i can see it in the list of cows that makes up the 1.5% dry on average. i think our breed has acceptable carcass quality where it is. it doesn't take an exceptional herd to meet REA/CWT of atleat 100 or to grade high select low choice.

I know that.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Well considering the market share with semen sales that it seems the angus lost this year, I would doubt that all cattle will turn black. Especially since more people are starting to realize and consider the benefits of cross breeding in a commercial system. It sounds more like a marketing scheme then cattle sense. I would doubt that many herefords will ever turn black. I doubt that the hereford association will ever allow it from a registration stand point. But then again every other breed has magically fell under the black spell. My herefords will be red and white, and I assure you that the people that I associate with are dedicated to the breed as well. If I have black cattle on my farm, they will be here as recipients for my true hereford calves. I am passionate about hereford cattle, and hope that others are as well. Like previously stated, it will be a sad day if indeed all cattle are black.

Indeed that CAB has had a very successful marketing plan, pretty much there marketing is based on the fact that most beef consumers have no idea what they are buying. Most don't know the grading system, the select to prime spread makes no difference to them. You can put a fancy sticker on em and they don't know the difference. They don't understand that what they are eating as "angus" beef, isn't any different then any other beef. Typically grocery store beef is terrible regardless of what it started out as. The ground beef usually has a distinct taste to it, and usually cooks off with an off colored waste.

I don't know exactly how the premiums show up on the back side of the product. There is only a .10-.20 cent premium in the difference between select and choice in Ribeyes, T-bone, KC, and sirloins. There is no difference between the grades in nearly all other cuts of beef. Chucks, clods, eyes, tops and bottoms. There is nearly no difference in these cuts between select and prime grades either, and these cuts make up a large percentage of all cuts on a beef animal. Most grocery stores don't carry much in the way of prime cuts either. I believe all of walmarts meat is all pre-cut select before it comes to the store.