Black Charolais for terminal?

[midtncattle]

I haven't looked at the background, but the pictures look impressive. I would have to think they would not be ideal due to not being a true purebreed. I know most only want purebred bulls for terminal cross. It would be great to get char growth in a black bull. Anybody know much about them?

 

[angusdave63]

i am like you i don't know much about these black chars, but if you could get them to mash the scales down like the white ones do i would think they would do real nice. i have used mostly english breeding in the past, angus herfy amd red poll. really like all 3 breeds and i am sure they would cross nice on chars regardless of the color. i have several red poll angus cross and one char- red poll cross calf really like the calves so far.

 

[midtncattle]

Got online and read about them. They won't do what I thought. I was thinking bred to my gerts they would throw black calves. Net says they throw black calves from black cows with no red gene.

 

[salebarn junkie]

I dont think there would be much charolais left by the time you breed the diluter gene out. It wold be a lot harder than changing one of the red breeds black. Id just use a good black limi for termanel calves.

 

[VanC]

Got online and read about them. They won't do what I thought. I was thinking bred to my gerts they would throw black calves. Net says they throw black calves from black cows with no red gene.

I don't know much about them but I'd think if the dilutor gene has been bred out of them, and they're homozygous black, they should throw black calves out of your Gerts. My concern would be how many of them are available?

 

[Simmental7]

I would consider a black simmental bull.. bout near the same growth. but with better meat quality. :cboy:

 

[heath]

I would consider a black simmental bull.. bout near the same growth. but with better meat quality. :cboy:

I bet you would!

 

[cow pollinater]

Reds have always been a part of the charolais breed and the "blacks" that weren't bred up are mostly made from breeding for darker reds.

 

[Massey135]

Traditional charolais are homozygous red, most just also carry a diluter gene. My vice with the black Chars is that most haven't been stabalized at a fixed % char blood. . They are only maybe 2-3 generations removed from Angus blood . This being said. Most promoted black Chars are homozygous black and will transmit the black color no differently than an Angus.

 

[midtncattle]

Thanks for info. Wonder how much vigor you get from them over a gert?

 

[VLS_GUY]

Black Chars are 31/32 Charolais and require the same upgrade process as any other domestic purebred Charolais. This protracted upgrade process means that very few black purebreds exist. Homozygous black purebreds are very rare and if high quality very valuable. Most black Charolais cattle carry the influence of HEJ COALMINE 13H a 7/8 bull that was the best bull at the rime. This means these cattle have a narrow genetic base.
Black Charolais were created when red factor Charolais were used to grade up Angus Based cows. Thus no diluter gene.
That said no homozygous black Charolais herdsire can compare in quality to the average white or red herd sire in quality. They do not have the growth, muscle, maternal or calving ease.
Any Black Charolais bull for use on Commerical cows will likely be a percentage bull do to low numbers.
If you are still interested talk to:
HEJ Charolais
Char Maine Ranches
Janice Sproule
Laue's Ranches
Three Trees Ranch

 

[Massey135]

Are you calling a 31/32 a percentage bull, or are all black charolais' not 31/32? I'm confused by your first and last sentence?

 

[VLS_GUY]

You can get domestic purebred (31/32) and percentage black Charolais bulls. It all depends on where they are in the upgrading process. Janice Sproule sold some 3/4 Black Charolais bulls and got as much money as her purebreds last spring in her bulls sale (2012). A 31/32 is a domestic purebred; anything less is a percentage bull.

 

[Massey135]

You can get domestic purebred (31/32) and percentage black Charolais bulls. It all depends on where they are in the upgrading process. Janice Sproule sold some 3/4 Black Charolais bulls and got as much money as her purebreds last spring in her bulls sale (2012). A 31/32 is a domestic purebred; anything less is a percentage bull.

Glad you clarified not all black Chars are 31/32. Further supporting that their genes are not stabalized bc they're only 2-3 generations removed from Angus. Heck, even most of these black 31/32 are only 5 gens removed. They haven't been around long enough to be breeding black purebreds to black purebreds to stabalize them at 31/32.

In addition, I think you should have to breed up to purebred status using fullbloods.

 

[VLS_GUY]

They have been breeding purebred black Charolais to each other for the past decade. They have been stabilized as 31/32. They just don't have the genetic diversity in the purebred breeding population since it takes 5 generations to arrive at purebred status hence their quality isn't equal to a white or red factor animal. The percentage bulls and cows get culled fairly hard relative to the black purebreds.

 

[Massey135]

I guess I shouldn't have been speaking in generalities bc now you are too.

Of all bulls advertised as "black charolais", what % would you say are out of both a black purebred char bull and a black purebred char cow?

I was under the impression many of them were first generation blacks- meaning like a black purebred calf out of a black 15/16ths bull and a red cow? No?

 

[VLS_GUY]

Plenty of red and white cows get bred to Black Charolais bulls because they are trying to get some outcross. Most of the bulls used by purebred breeders are purebred now. The black bulls are not so popular that they are out selling the traditional cattle. Most of the black Charolais breeders had sale averages this year anywhere from 4,500 to 3,500. So the white hair coat is work as much or more than the black hide here.

 

[deenranch]

A white Charolais cross calf is one of the most reconizable crosses there are. Why would you want to use a black char and a black cow? I think the buyer would be wondering what kind of calf he is getting. If it were smokey or buckskin, he knows.

That's not even throwing in the obvious growth you will get using a traditional white bull, that has good genetics...

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Deenranch these folk got black on the brain. The Char cross calves always sell good around here. Like you said the buyer always knows what they are.

 

[VLS_GUY]

Where the Black Charolais idea got started is that in Canada the Charolais is the establishment. There is not much room for market growth in the traditional white bull market. The breeders had some red factor cattle they were selling to people that wanted to preserve the buckskin color on char cross cows and to people that wanted to hide the fact they were using a Charolais bull on black and red cows (a minority). Since many of these red factor bulls sold well they started going after the Limousin and Blonde D'Aquitaine market share on purpose. From this grew the idea of why not produce black cattle to get business from those people that want a black continental bull? Considering the advantage from the stamp a white bull puts on his calves this is a small market. Something else to consider: New breeders used the fact they had black Charolais for the shock promotional value. Just ask some of the people on the list I gave about this.