Your defintion of moderate frame ?

[JHH]

Was at a friends last night and he said that he ( I helped him) A-I to a moderate framed bull I said it didnt really seem like it since he had to help the calves get started sucking ( to tall at birth ) I ask what he called moderate. He said 6.5 frame. We all have our own defintion of things, What is yours with frame size. Moderate to me is just over 5 but I dont think 6 as being moderate. I dont want over 6 but I prefer to be 5.5.

He has some nice cows sure hated to see the bigger frame and less muscle . He does have some that he A-I ed that are from a what I would call moderate bull. they were heifers they look nice. he doesnt like them to small he says. I think he is seeing the very deep bodied heifers and thinks they are to small. they are actually going to mature at a frame 6 I think but they are nice.

 

[mrvictordomino]

JHH, I think we see things the same way. A 5 frame animal that is deep bodied can still
weigh pretty heavy. I have always thought that a frame 5 would be moderate, somewhere in the
middle. There are many folks that have a hard time useing a frame 5 bull that would help
them reel in ever increasing mature cow size. In our program, we do not do the roller coaster
thing where we get them too big, and then have to bring them down. We try to maintain a
consistant size and work on other key traits such as fertility, calving ease, udders, and overall
soundness.
DM

 

[quackingduck]

It seems that moderate frame is being used as a replacement term for cow efficiency therefore in my opinion moderate frame equals the average frame size of the cow herd which nets the most return from their environment. This may be different sizes in different situations.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

I would call Frame 4.5 to 5.5 moderate framed. I personally would be happy with straight 5-5.5s across the board. Maybe someday, I'll be there.

I will say there is no silver bullet, as even the exact same genetic packages will mature out at different sizes under different environments and management techniques.

 

[BRG]

I would call anything under a 5 small, between a 5 and 6 moderate, a 6 to 6.5 on the verge of being large and anything over that large

But to me, frame is over talked about. I think we should all be paying more attention to body type and structure, instead of frame. If I have a 1500 lbs 5 frame cow, I am much more happy than having a 1500 lbs 7 frame cow. Problem is, I see way to many 1100 to 1200 lbs 5 frame cows. If a cow is in good shape, has the body type and length that I demand in a cow, she will be a heck of alot heavier than 1200 lbs. Those finer made, flat sided, shallow bodied cows don't cut it for me or my customers.

 

[cattleman99]

6-6.5 would be moderate framed in my mind.

But I agree with BRG that the type of animal is more important than the frame size. I have a couple cows with 7 plus frames that wean 900 lb calves year in and year out, breed back early, and aren't going anywhere. I haven't run them across the scale in a few years but they are 1700 approx each and I have no trouble selling the progeny. I also have a couple of 5 frame cows that weigh right up there themselves and weigh 7 weight calves annually. I call them efficient. However I also culled a 5 frame cow that weaned a 450 lb calf as a first calver last year, slipped a month and just weaned another 425 lb steer and slipped at least another month from when I last saw her cycle. I consider that cow inefficient given that we have had no shortage of grass this year. Just because they are small doesn't make them efficient and good and just because they are big doesn't always make them bad and inefficient.

 

[dun]

6-6.5 would be moderate framed in my mind.

Me too. The feeders want a large medium to a small large frame. That's where we sell our calves and that's what we strive for

 

[3waycross]

6-6.5 would be moderate framed in my mind.

But I agree with BRG that the type of animal is more important than the frame size. I have a couple cows with 7 plus frames that wean 900 lb calves year in and year out, breed back early, and aren't going anywhere. I haven't run them across the scale in a few years but they are 1700 approx each and I have no trouble selling the progeny. I also have a couple of 5 frame cows that weigh right up there themselves and weigh 7 weight calves annually. I call them efficient. However I also culled a 5 frame cow that weaned a 450 lb calf as a first calver last year, slipped a month and just weaned another 425 lb steer and slipped at least another month from when I last saw her cycle. I consider that cow inefficient given that we have had no shortage of grass this year. Just because they are small doesn't make them efficient and good and just because they are big doesn't always make them bad and inefficient.

Would you mind telling us what kind of cattle you raise, and at what age you wean. 900lb weaning weights are pretty spectacular especially without creep. Are you raising Fleckvieh or something like that, maybe Chars?

 

[WichitaLineMan]

I'm sure he weans 900 pound calves at 6 months old and sells at the top of the market. Another internet cattle hero.

 

[cattleman99]

Calves are 8-9 months of age when weaned and most are creeped the last 60-70 days. Why wouldn't you. It always pays to creep around here as we are close to the Northern end of the grain belt and there is always feed grain to be found cheap within 10-15 miles of home or closer. I have a couple of pastures 25 miles away I don't creep as I seldomly go up there in the summer.

They are mostly all straight Fleckvieh but I have around 10 total of single Red simmentals that are fleckvieh incluenced and 1/2 blood Red Angus Flecks. If they aren't consistently weaning 650 lb calves or thereabouts they go to town pretty quick. We don't get to pasture to early to Mid May most years and we've already had frost so light weight calves don't make money in this country. I'll usually give a young cow 2 chances then she's gone.

There is a bit of eveything around here but Simmental and Charolais influence dominate. There has also been a lot of Red Angus added to herds in the last 8-10 years.

 

[3waycross]

Calves are 8-9 months of age when weaned and most are creeped the last 60-70 days. Why wouldn't you. It always pays to creep around here as we are close to the Northern end of the grain belt and there is always feed grain to be found cheap within 10-15 miles of home or closer. I have a couple of pastures 25 miles away I don't creep as I seldomly go up there in the summer.

They are mostly all straight Fleckvieh but I have around 10 total of single Red simmentals that are fleckvieh incluenced and 1/2 blood Red Angus Flecks. If they aren't consistently weaning 650 lb calves or thereabouts they go to town pretty quick. We don't get to pasture to early to Mid May most years and we've already had frost so light weight calves don't make money in this country. I'll usually give a young cow 2 chances then she's gone.

There is a bit of eveything around here but Simmental and Charolais influence dominate. There has also been a lot of Red Angus added to herds in the last 8-10 years.

Cattleman 99 after I went back and read some of your older posts and according to your post you start creep at 150 days that would put you creeping them for more like 90 to 120 days. Don't misunderstand me now I am not critisizing that method but it would probably only be economically feasible for about 10 to 15% of us on here. The feed costs would destroy anyone not living in the corn belt and even then the cost of inputs to me at least becomes a little crazy.
I like Fleck cattle a lot but in my part of the country it's a very different deal. My cousin raises some very good Fleckvieh cattle but manages them much differently that what you do. He has a USFS grzing permit and runs his cattle(commercial and registered) at 9000' for about a hundred days every summer. Those girls come out of the mountains with gorgeous 650 to 750 clves on their sides and when they are weaned they gain like crazy. To me at least that's a much more real world program.

 

[KNERSIE]

I have a couple cows with 7 plus frames that wean 900 lb calves year in and year out, breed back early, and aren't going anywhere.

....cough, cough, bullshite, cough cough...

 

[redcowsrule33]

You know, this makes me think, I haven't frame scored (where I actually measured them) my cows for a very long time. If I get a chance I'll do it his weekend and post afterward, my idea of a 5 frame in my head could be very diffferent from reality. Too wet to do anything else anyway.

 

[angus9259]

For some reason, when I hear the word "moderate" I substitute the word "small". When I show up to buy something and folks say it's "moderate" I expect to see small. Is that because "small" is a bad word in cattle? Large can sell, small can't so "moderate" becomes small. It's like sodas at McDonalds - "small" becomes "value".

ANYHOW . . . if "moderate" means "target" or "median" I'd say 6 for me with a range between 5.5 and 6.5. If "moderate" means small average, I'd go with 5.5. 5.0 would be "small" (not that there's anything wrong with that) but it's what I would expect to see if someone were advertising "moderate" cattle.

 

[dun]

For some reason, when I hear the word "moderate" I substitute the word "small". When I show up to buy something and folks say it's "moderate" I expect to see small. Is that because "small" is a bad word in cattle? Large can sell, small can't so "moderate" becomes small. It's like sodas at McDonalds - "small" becomes "value".

ANYHOW . . . if "moderate" means "target" or "median" I'd say 6 for me with a range between 5.5 and 6.5. If "moderate" means small average, I'd go with 5.5. 5.0 would be "small" (not that there's anything wrong with that) but it's what I would expect to see if someone were advertising "moderate" cattle.

Too freqently I see what are touted as moderate being 7 plus frames. Also has to do with where you are. I was talking with abreeder fromIowa last week about breeding stock. He says anything under a 7 he sends to the feedlet, heifer or bull, becuase his seedstock buyers don;t want little cattle.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I have a couple cows with 7 plus frames that wean 900 lb calves year in and year out, breed back early, and aren't going anywhere.

....cough, cough, bullshite, cough cough...

not on either side here,, but you dont think a creep fed fleckvieh could weigh 900 at 9 months.. or is it the moma ? just curious

 

[Brandonm22]

Moderate has become the en vogue marketing term today. There are people selling "moderate" cattle that are a whole lot bigger than the "big and framy" cattle they were selling 20 years ago when frame was the en vogue marketing term. Everybody wants to say their cows are moderate....even if they aren't.

Anything less than frame 3 is too small. 3 to 5 is moderate and I have seen 1500++ lb frame 5s. 6-7 is big. 8-10 is too big. In a perfect world, you would breed frame 3 &4 frame commercial cows to 6++ frame terminal bulls to produce a 5.5-6 frame terminal calf crop. The real world is rarely every perfect though and usually involves a lot of compromises.

 

[cattleman99]

Where do you think 1400-1500 lb 365 day weights come from. I remember seeing several Bulls over 1600 lbs last year at sales. If your not pushing in that 800-900 lbs at 205 days it's often hard to get there. Check any Simmental bull sale catalog in Western Canada come the spring sales or go back and check past years and you'll find bulls in that range in pretty much every catalog. They are black,red and Flecks it doesn't matter. Some of the Charolais around here are even bigger. I'm not suggesting my cattle all weigh that at weaning because they don't. But every year a few do. There is no corn around here. It doesn't grow this far north. The calves get oats.

 

[rocket2222]

You don't have to go up north, if you look at the last couple of Star Lake catalogs, 700 pounders are the low ends, Shock & Awe who went on to be national champion weighed over 900 lb's at just 7 months old. And, yes, he was "a little moderate" they said.

 

[Oldtimer]

I have a couple cows with 7 plus frames that wean 900 lb calves year in and year out, breed back early, and aren't going anywhere.

....cough, cough, bullshite, cough cough...

not on either side here,, but you dont think a creep fed fleckvieh could weigh 900 at 9 months.. or is it the moma ? just curious

And creep feeding doesn't show the real ability of the cow-- just that the genetics with an unlimited checkbook for creep/corn can produce that sized calf... And any seedstock producer that uses creep to calves is not showing his customers a true picture of how these animals will perform in most real world situations...

To me anything under 4 is small---4 to 6 is moderate--- 6 to 8 is large-- and 8 up is way too large....My preference is a cow in the 4 to 5 frame area that can still shove the scale down to the 1100-1300 range.....

If I could have a perfect cow and size it would be like the little 4 frame Juanadamere cow that my son has that probably weighs 1100 at most- that as a first calver raised a heifer calf that topped the heifer group -615 lbs actual 622 adjusted weight-- and again this year will have a bull calf that weighs in the 650+ weight area....To have a whole herd like her is the goal we are aiming at...