Your defintion of moderate frame ?

[cattleman99]

http://www.transconlivestock.com Click on sale catalogs and check out last springs sales. This is a pretty good representation of what Simmentals can do as they do a lot of sales in Canada. Click on various catalogs. While there are lots of moderate 205 and 365 day weights you are going to see some programs where 1500 plus is quite common at a year and individual 205 day weights pushing 1000 lbs in some cases. I'm sure some creep feed but they all don't.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

....cough, cough, bullshite, cough cough...[/quote] not on either side here,, but you dont think a creep fed fleckvieh could weigh 900 at 9 months.. or is it the moma ? just curious[/quote]

And creep feeding doesn't show the real ability of the cow-- just that the genetics with an unlimited checkbook for creep/corn can produce that sized calf... And any seedstock producer that uses creep to calves is not showing his customers a true picture of how these animals will perform in most real world situations...

To me anything under 4 is small---4 to 6 is moderate--- 6 to 8 is large-- and 8 up is way too large....My preference is a cow in the 4 to 5 frame area that can still shove the scale down to the 1100-1300 range.............................................. true,,, but thats not what i ask.... a crept fed fleckvieh wouldnt have much trouble making it to 900# at 9 months ive seen charolais do it easy

 

[rocket2222]

I would call anything under a 5 small, between a 5 and 6 moderate, a 6 to 6.5 on the verge of being large and anything over that large

But to me, frame is over talked about. I think we should all be paying more attention to body type and structure, instead of frame. If I have a 1500 lbs 5 frame cow, I am much more happy than having a 1500 lbs 7 frame cow. Problem is, I see way to many 1100 to 1200 lbs 5 frame cows. If a cow is in good shape, has the body type and length that I demand in a cow, she will be a heck of alot heavier than 1200 lbs. Those finer made, flat sided, shallow bodied cows don't cut it for me or my customers.

IMHO, he hit nail right on the head right here. That's what I'm looking for, the right "type".

 

[Victoria]

I think 5 -6 is moderate.

Perfectly possible for a 9 month old calf to weigh 900 lbs - we weighed our calves in September. We had 2 7 month old steer calves who weighed between 800 and 850. I don't have the exact numbers here. Purebred red Angus, no creep feeding - just milk and grass. Add a few months and some extra feed and they would be over 900 lbs.

 

[ANAZAZI]

I have a couple cows with 7 plus frames that wean 900 lb calves year in and year out, breed back early, and aren't going anywhere.

....cough, cough, bullshite, cough cough...

Who says 7plus is not 11 0r 12? :banana: :banana: :banana:

 

[ANAZAZI]

4 to 5 is moderate for me.

 

[KNERSIE]

To me anything under 4 is small---4 to 6 is moderate--- 6 to 8 is large-- and 8 up is way too large....My preference is a cow in the 4 to 5 frame area that can still shove the scale down to the 1100-1300 range.....

I am of the same school of thought although my cows weigh in the 1200-1350 range.

On the 900+lbs WW issue..... I questioned the cows weaning 900+lbs calves year in and year out, the 9 months part and the creep like a feedlot part came in later. It still has put it nicely in perspective for me.

 

[Brandonm22]

Knersie there are beef cattle seedstock herds here who get a visit from a feedtruck delivering their scientifically balanced ration 365 days a year even when the cows are standing in highly fertilized improved pasture (arguably that isn't "creep feeding" even when the calves have their head in the bunk next to their dam). That the top 10-20% of some of these high growth EPD herds wean in excess of 900 lb calves is no great shock. After 180++ days eating grain the transition to full feed is not difficult.

Then inevitably some sucker with 2 inch tall grass buys one of these 1600++ lb pig fat bulls at 13 months old, doesn't transition him at all from grain to grass, and turns him loose with 90 cows and older bulls to fight then comes on here and complains that his bull "fell apart".

 

[dun]

I think there are a lot ofpeople that don;t know what the actual numbers are for FS. For bulls it's abou t2 inches per FS and for heifers it's about 1.9 inches. The catch is that a6 frame bull si 55.1 inches and a 6 frame heifer is 51.9. USDA classifies a 5 as medium and a 6 as large frame

 

[F350]

I think there are a lot ofpeople that don;t know what the actual numbers are for FS. For bulls it's abou t2 inches per FS and for heifers it's about 1.9 inches. The catch is that a6 frame bull si 55.1 inches and a 6 frame heifer is 51.9. USDA classifies a 5 as medium and a 6 as large frame

Dun, could you explain this in more detail? I don't quite understand the formula. Thanks,

 

[Idaman]

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1091w.htm

This link has the tables and formulas for framescore. It does not define moderate though.

 

[dun]

From the angus associtaion about frame scores
http://www.angus.org/Performance/AHIR/P ... Score.aspx

 

[F350]

Dun & Idaman,
Thanks for the info.

 

[Brandonm22]

http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publica ... A-3056.pdf

According to the USDA, SMALL is a frame 3 or less. MEDIUM is a frame 4 or 5 and LARGE is frame 6 or more. Of course "moderate" is not a USDA term so for truth in advertising reasons it really can be whatever you say it is.

 

[redcowsrule33]

So.... this was a learning experience. I went out to the herd and picked three cows I considered to be "moderate" and the size I liked to see. Then I picked my "short" cows and the "too tall" cows and measured hip heights.

Wow.

My moderate, target cow is a 6-6.5 frame. Much larger than I thought. Too tall was 8. :shock: My "short" cows were 5 frame.

My cows are small compared to my dad's, which would probably all be 7 frame and above. I knew they were massive cows but I guess I never realized how massive.

Will this exercise change my mind about my target? No, these are the cows that are doing well in my husbandry situation and are obviously efficient enough, as we do not grain them and pasture except for this year has been poor due to drought. But I think I'll be a bit less critical of my short cows.

 

[showing71]

A moderate frame in my eyes is a 5.5-6. IMO, I think at this size they still have the capacity, depth, muscling, whatever to wean off a good sized calf. But in the end, if there's a good cow out there that is bigger but is still the 'type' I like, FS won't make or break the decision to keep her.

 

[JHH]

So.... this was a learning experience. I went out to the herd and picked three cows I considered to be "moderate" and the size I liked to see. Then I picked my "short" cows and the "too tall" cows and measured hip heights.

Wow.

My moderate, target cow is a 6-6.5 frame. Much larger than I thought. Too tall was 8. :shock: My "short" cows were 5 frame.

My cows are small compared to my dad's, which would probably all be 7 frame and above. I knew they were massive cows but I guess I never realized how massive.

Will this exercise change my mind about my target? No, these are the cows that are doing well in my husbandry situation and are obviously efficient enough, as we do not grain them and pasture except for this year has been poor due to drought. But I think I'll be a bit less critical of my short cows.

This is why I ask that question. I have some cows that are to big . But none over a frame 6.5.My buddy has angus and he called his cows moderate till he seen mine. He now says I have short cows. In reality he has to big of cows and wants bigger.He had to help some calves get started sucking this year because they were to tall and wouldnt bend there head.He wasnt happy. says he is going to get rid of all the short cows he has. :lol: ( I hope he does SOME are older line of angus and are short 6 frame) Then I can breed em to my herf bull

 

[purecountry]

The "right frame score and the right type are different for everyone's individual climatic, resource and marketing requirements. In our part of Alberta, we get cold winter weather sometimes for long stretches. We have lots of grass on our ranch. We grass finish everything and market it through farmer's markets and now our own store. For those 3 things, we require animals that have lots of body in 3 dimensions. Width, length and depth. I don't get too fussy about frame score, I put alot of emphasis on type, as others mentioned previously.

We raise Galloways because they seem to have a higher instance of the right type than most other breeds in the area. Within our herd, we average a frame score 3-3.5, haven't measured every cow or this year's heifers, but I've done most. That said, with the type we select for, best described as Gearld Fry says, "70% body 30% leg", the herd will average 1200lbs. When it's -40 + wind chills for a week or more, cows with this body type will maintain themselves much better than frame score 7's that weigh 1200, regardless of breed.

So to me, moderate means what Oxford and Webster define it as - "...medium in amount, intensity, or quality, etc....." Frame 3-4 is my moderate, below 3 is small, and they have to get to a frame 6 or so before I really call them "Big". I've got a couple crossbred cows left that are frame 5's and 1400lbs, and the right type. ;-)

 

[Northern Rancher]

If you put away the feed bucket it's amazing how quick your ranch finds the proper type for it's resources. A small framed thin cow is a pretty sad sight when the wind shifts to the northeast up here but then so is a big framed one. The days of having a sympathy pen to put the hard doers in for winter are gone for sure. A cow should be able to exist on grass in most of the year and decent hay in the winter if you get here calving season in synch with that agenda. I'd call frame 4 or 5 moderate for my place-last time I measured heifers that's kind of where we were at.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

A moderate frame in my eyes is a 5.5-6. IMO, I think at this size they still have the capacity, depth, muscling, whatever to wean off a good sized calf. But in the end, if there's a good cow out there that is bigger but is still the 'type' I like, FS won't make or break the decision to keep her.

Frame size does NOT indicate that they have " capacity, depth, muscling, whatever to wean off a good sized calf". A frame 3 can have those traits and a frame 7 can also. Frame size is strickly HEIGHT.
Moderate for me would be 5.5 to 6.5.
When we had our 9 frame cows, we had one calf wean at 205 day wt of 905#.
Most of our cows are around 6 frame (maybe as low as 5 and as big as 7) - our male calves averaged 735# at 205 day wt. I'm real happy with that - no creep. Heifers were 635#.