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Read there is nothing about separation of the government except established one.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
 
D2Cat":3pwnaj4r said:
So if you're going to cut and paste what you want "separation of church and state" to be...here's another view.

"On the other hand, there are those who believe the matter is simply that the government should not establish an official state church, or that a church should not be anointing officials in the government. Other than that, people should believe and practice how they see fit. Both sides couch their arguments on constitutional theories, some involving Thomas Jefferson's "Wall of Separation" letter.

To consider this issue, it is important to look at the historical situation of the framers and what they intended. To recap, they were declaring independence from the king of England. There is one important title for the monarch of England that is relevant to this issue—Supreme Governor of the Church of England." Not only was the Church of England the official state religion (and still is), but the king himself was the head of that church. This ensured that his political reach not only extended in the public realm, but from the pulpit. The hierarchy of the church was subservient to the king. This led to abuses in both directions—those by the church and those by the government.

The founders did not declare independence from England because they wanted to set up a secular state. They declared independence because of a long train of abuses and usurpations of government power against its people. They were concerned about matters of tyranny, not theology. The Boston Tea Party was about taxes (and thus enshrined in American tradition the fine art of complaining about taxes), not about Baptists throwing Presbyterians' Bibles into the Atlantic. The Declaration itself made liberal use of religion in general, as did the founders in their public statements. Even in Jefferson's "Wall" letter, he expresses religious sentiment and asks for prayers. It's obviously clear; it isn't religious expression they are worried about.

The choice of phrase is important, "separation of church and state." Jefferson doesn't say separation of religion and state. He is talking about institutional separation. Ireland's official church is the Roman Catholic Church, as is Poland's. In England, it's the Church of England. These aren't religions in general but specific religious institutions. No nation has "Christianity" as the official state religion for a very good reason. The reason is that there's about 50,000-some odd flavors that run the gamut from the Mormons to the Unitarians. Some Christians say Jesus established a hierarchical church, others say He was a social activist, still others say He was an anarchist. Saying Christianity is the official state religion would border on effective meaninglessness. It wasn't the ideas that the founders were afraid of, which is why they were perfectly free praying together and expressing religious sentiment in public documents and speeches. Institutional corruption and tyranny were their concerns.

The results of institutional mingling of churches and governments are quite clear in history and it hasn't been beneficial for the state or the church. However, this is a far cry from divining an intent that projects the idea that "religion is all that's wrong with the world" upon the founders. There was a camp among the founders who believed that a free society required a religious people and yet still continued to allow free association between the various churches."

Thank you for this clarification. That is how I basically remember it from an American History class many years ago, but failed to be able to convey that. We were basically founded on the religious principles and that is what is sorely lacking in this country in so many places. If you want to call it cilvility and morals, then so be it; but basically it was based in religious beliefs and practices; not to be tied to one specific "official" church as D2cat says. Most all religions believe in a higher up, supreme power, as do most Native Americans and Jews and others. We may not use the same name, follow all the same rituals, but decency and respect is at the core of the beliefs.
 
Caustic Burno":26l49d93 said:
Read there is nothing about separation of the government except established one.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

CB,
The right to assemble and practice religion is well founded in the First Amendment.

The expressed right to involve others in the exercise of religion in a public state sponsored institution is what is at contest. Currently, and I believe rightfully, our state sponsored institutions are not endorsing one religion over another. The only just way to do that would be to hold religious sessions for all the denominations and recognized religions. Otherwise, the government would be forced into the position of choosing a State supported religion that we must all follow.
 
Angus9259, strictly out of curiosity, I'd like to know what faith has ordained you as a minister? If you don't want to answer, I understand.
 
It's easy to agree with all ya'll when you're sooooo right. I agree completely with JMG FARMS solution. Simple and functional just like all us "uneducated" voters. All I might add is that I want the government to just leave me the heck alone. Oh and it would be nice if all the liberal troublemaking media would jump off a tall bridge.
All I really wanted to do was agree with JMG FARMS but once I get started......
 
CB,
Recognize as I am confident you do, the Supreme Court, right or wrong depending on your persuasion, has ruled on the two provisions in the First Amendment - the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause. The Establishment Clause restrains the government from "establishing" a religion. As follows:

The First Amendment has two provisions concerning religion: the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause. The Establishment clause prohibits the government from "establishing" a religion. The precise definition of "establishment" is unclear. Historically, it meant prohibiting state-sponsored churches, such as the Church of England.

Today, what constitutes an "establishment of religion" is often governed under the three-part test set forth by the U.S. Supreme Court in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971). Under the "Lemon" test, government can assist religion only if (1) the primary purpose of the assistance is secular, (2) the assistance must neither promote nor inhibit religion, and (3) there is no excessive entanglement between church and state.
 
Bigfoot":2mvumuse said:
Angus9259, strictly out of curiosity, I'd like to know what faith has ordained you as a minister? If you don't want to answer, I understand.

Faith? Christian. Denomination? Reformed Church in America. Pretty big in Michigan, Iowa, and New York - kinda like Presbyterian or congregational in practice.

Was an atheist through college and worked as a chemical sales engineer in the paper industry. Through a long and winding path I got my masters of divinity (mostly for my own interest in learning about the faith I think) and ended up planting a couple churches for the denomination when raising our 4 adopted African American kids and working for corporate America got too crazy. Kids grew up, was broke and a little crazy and went back into the paper industry the last 5 years again. Kinda weird when you see it in writing like that......

Somewhere in there the cattle bug bit me.

I got issues.
 
Bigfoot":3eqmgnwc said:
Angus9259, strictly out of curiosity, I'd like to know what faith has ordained you as a minister? If you don't want to answer, I understand.

Been to a couple mills in Kentucky. Beautiful area. One of my favorites areas without question. Big Domtar mill in Hawesville over to the new tissue mill in Harrodsburg. Never been over to Paducah or Owensboro where there are a couple other mills.
 
angus9259":247earqy said:
Bigfoot":247earqy said:
Angus9259, strictly out of curiosity, I'd like to know what faith has ordained you as a minister? If you don't want to answer, I understand.

Faith? Christian. Denomination? Reformed Church in America. Pretty big in Michigan, Iowa, and New York - kinda like Presbyterian or congregational in practice.

Was an atheist through college and worked as a chemical sales engineer in the paper industry. Through a long and winding path I got my masters of divinity (mostly for my own interest in learning about the faith I think) and ended up planting a couple churches for the denomination when raising our 4 adopted African American kids and working for corporate America got too crazy. Kids grew up, was broke and a little crazy and went back into the paper industry the last 5 years again. Kinda weird when you see it in writing like that......

Somewhere in there the cattle bug bit me.

I got issues.

Is it contagious? If not, feel right at home here.
 
Margonme":15043hgc said:
angus9259":15043hgc said:
I got issues.

Is it contagious? If not, feel right at home here.

Ha! I hope not. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. I got a great story about when I became an atheist. I referred to myself as a "born again evangelical" atheist. Been a crazy azz weird ride. Not sure it's over yet.
 
angus9259":2k945wcu said:
Margonme":2k945wcu said:
angus9259":2k945wcu said:
I got issues.

Is it contagious? If not, feel right at home here.

Ha! I hope not. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. I got a great story about when I became an atheist. I referred to myself as a "born again evangelical" atheist. Been a crazy azz weird ride. Not sure it's over yet.

Let's hope it is not over. Enjoy the ride, destination might not be what you thought it would be so try to enjoy getting there.
 
D2Cat, you deserve a response:

Thank you for providing the post regarding the facts of the Jefferson citation of "separation of Church and State". You are correct. I did cut and paste. The issue of worship in government sponsored events and institutions is complex.

First, I agree with your post, but the contest I want to have is not about the meaning of Jefferson's citation.

Second, I agree with CB about the meaning of the first amendment and it's purpose.

To state my point again and to focus on the contest:

The expressed right to involve others in the exercise of religion in a public state sponsored institution is what is at contest.

The U.S. Supreme Court has never ruled that kids can't pray in school. What the Court has done — and continues to do — is to strike down school-sponsored prayers and devotional exercises as violations of religious liberty.

When politicians demonize the courts for "banning God from schools", they count on public confusion, JUST LIKE WE ARE HAVING HERE, about the First Amendment distinction between government speech promoting religion, which the establishment clause prohibits, and student speech promoting religion, which the free-exercise and free-speech clauses protect.

What should not be confusing to anyone is that the Government (schools are government sponsored) should not be promoting religion of any denomination or doctrine. To do so would place the government in the role of deciding which faith to promote: THAT IS OBVIOUSLY WRONG. It is a violation of religious liberty.
 
JMJ Farms":avm5nvvs said:
I respectfully disagree. It's easy to decide. When in Rome do as the Romans do. If you go to Afghanistan, you practice Islam or either sit in the corner with your trap shut. If you come to America, you practice Christianity, or sit in the corner with your trap shut. I know that my way of thinking is not supported in the days and times in which we live. So humor me. What would have happened if our current circumstances had taken place 200 years ago? It would not have been tolerated. The only reason it's tolerated today is because it was a gradual changing that occurred over many years, a little at a time, and it was kinda overlooked bc it was such a slow encroachment. One side just kept taking a little more and a little more. As Grit stated, like it or not, this country was founded on Christianity. And also like it or not, the USA worked a lot better when more people practiced it! Try as you may, nobody will ever convince me that the founding fathers intended for, nor would approve of, Islam being practiced in the USA. And I, like TG, don't even think it's a religion. But that's another topic for another time.

Edited to add: I guess most anything is acceptable in the USA these days because times and beliefs have changed. But it wouldn't have been acceptable 200, or for that matter 50, years ago. I like the old way better.
Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers would disagree with you:
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan [Muslim], the Hindoo [Hindu], and Infidel of every denomination."
 
Margonme":1eyeisr1 said:
angus9259":1eyeisr1 said:
Margonme":1eyeisr1 said:
Is it contagious? If not, feel right at home here.

Ha! I hope not. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. I got a great story about when I became an atheist. I referred to myself as a "born again evangelical" atheist. Been a crazy azz weird ride. Not sure it's over yet.

Let's hope it is not over. Enjoy the ride, destination might not be what you thought it would be so try to enjoy getting there.
Faith has or should always have been about the journey.....not the destination.
 
D2Cat":1i91judj said:
So if you're going to cut and paste what you want "separation of church and state" to be...here's another view.

"On the other hand, there are those who believe the matter is simply that the government should not establish an official state church, or that a church should not be anointing officials in the government. Other than that, people should believe and practice how they see fit. Both sides couch their arguments on constitutional theories, some involving Thomas Jefferson's "Wall of Separation" letter.

To consider this issue, it is important to look at the historical situation of the framers and what they intended. To recap, they were declaring independence from the king of England. There is one important title for the monarch of England that is relevant to this issue—Supreme Governor of the Church of England." Not only was the Church of England the official state religion (and still is), but the king himself was the head of that church. This ensured that his political reach not only extended in the public realm, but from the pulpit. The hierarchy of the church was subservient to the king. This led to abuses in both directions—those by the church and those by the government.

The founders did not declare independence from England because they wanted to set up a secular state. They declared independence because of a long train of abuses and usurpations of government power against its people. They were concerned about matters of tyranny, not theology. The Boston Tea Party was about taxes (and thus enshrined in American tradition the fine art of complaining about taxes), not about Baptists throwing Presbyterians' Bibles into the Atlantic. The Declaration itself made liberal use of religion in general, as did the founders in their public statements. Even in Jefferson's "Wall" letter, he expresses religious sentiment and asks for prayers. It's obviously clear; it isn't religious expression they are worried about.

The choice of phrase is important, "separation of church and state." Jefferson doesn't say separation of religion and state. He is talking about institutional separation. Ireland's official church is the Roman Catholic Church, as is Poland's. In England, it's the Church of England. These aren't religions in general but specific religious institutions. No nation has "Christianity" as the official state religion for a very good reason. The reason is that there's about 50,000-some odd flavors that run the gamut from the Mormons to the Unitarians. Some Christians say Jesus established a hierarchical church, others say He was a social activist, still others say He was an anarchist. Saying Christianity is the official state religion would border on effective meaninglessness. It wasn't the ideas that the founders were afraid of, which is why they were perfectly free praying together and expressing religious sentiment in public documents and speeches. Institutional corruption and tyranny were their concerns.

The results of institutional mingling of churches and governments are quite clear in history and it hasn't been beneficial for the state or the church. However, this is a far cry from divining an intent that projects the idea that "religion is all that's wrong with the world" upon the founders. There was a camp among the founders who believed that a free society required a religious people and yet still continued to allow free association between the various churches."

I haven't been on the forum in a while. When did using the facts become acceptable in these debates?

Good post D2cat
 
D2Cat":222kq4ec said:
So if you're going to cut and paste what you want "separation of church and state" to be...here's another view.

"On the other hand, there are those who believe the matter is simply that the government should not establish an official state church, or that a church should not be anointing officials in the government. Other than that, people should believe and practice how they see fit. Both sides couch their arguments on constitutional theories, some involving Thomas Jefferson's "Wall of Separation" letter.

To consider this issue, it is important to look at the historical situation of the framers and what they intended. To recap, they were declaring independence from the king of England. There is one important title for the monarch of England that is relevant to this issue—Supreme Governor of the Church of England." Not only was the Church of England the official state religion (and still is), but the king himself was the head of that church. This ensured that his political reach not only extended in the public realm, but from the pulpit. The hierarchy of the church was subservient to the king. This led to abuses in both directions—those by the church and those by the government.

The founders did not declare independence from England because they wanted to set up a secular state. They declared independence because of a long train of abuses and usurpations of government power against its people. They were concerned about matters of tyranny, not theology. The Boston Tea Party was about taxes (and thus enshrined in American tradition the fine art of complaining about taxes), not about Baptists throwing Presbyterians' Bibles into the Atlantic. The Declaration itself made liberal use of religion in general, as did the founders in their public statements. Even in Jefferson's "Wall" letter, he expresses religious sentiment and asks for prayers. It's obviously clear; it isn't religious expression they are worried about.

The choice of phrase is important, "separation of church and state." Jefferson doesn't say separation of religion and state. He is talking about institutional separation. Ireland's official church is the Roman Catholic Church, as is Poland's. In England, it's the Church of England. These aren't religions in general but specific religious institutions. No nation has "Christianity" as the official state religion for a very good reason. The reason is that there's about 50,000-some odd flavors that run the gamut from the Mormons to the Unitarians. Some Christians say Jesus established a hierarchical church, others say He was a social activist, still others say He was an anarchist. Saying Christianity is the official state religion would border on effective meaninglessness. It wasn't the ideas that the founders were afraid of, which is why they were perfectly free praying together and expressing religious sentiment in public documents and speeches. Institutional corruption and tyranny were their concerns.

The results of institutional mingling of churches and governments are quite clear in history and it hasn't been beneficial for the state or the church. However, this is a far cry from divining an intent that projects the idea that "religion is all that's wrong with the world" upon the founders. There was a camp among the founders who believed that a free society required a religious people and yet still continued to allow free association between the various churches."

I haven't been on the forum in a while. When did using the facts become acceptable in these debates?

Good post D2Cat.
 
Deepsouth

Rules have not been changed. In the heat of the election, the moderators seem to on vacation. I don't expect this grace period will last.
 
TexasBred":7hkvacun said:
JMJ Farms":7hkvacun said:
I respectfully disagree. It's easy to decide. When in Rome do as the Romans do. If you go to Afghanistan, you practice Islam or either sit in the corner with your trap shut. If you come to America, you practice Christianity, or sit in the corner with your trap shut. I know that my way of thinking is not supported in the days and times in which we live. So humor me. What would have happened if our current circumstances had taken place 200 years ago? It would not have been tolerated. The only reason it's tolerated today is because it was a gradual changing that occurred over many years, a little at a time, and it was kinda overlooked bc it was such a slow encroachment. One side just kept taking a little more and a little more. As Grit stated, like it or not, this country was founded on Christianity. And also like it or not, the USA worked a lot better when more people practiced it! Try as you may, nobody will ever convince me that the founding fathers intended for, nor would approve of, Islam being practiced in the USA. And I, like TG, don't even think it's a religion. But that's another topic for another time.

Edited to add: I guess most anything is acceptable in the USA these days because times and beliefs have changed. But it wouldn't have been acceptable 200, or for that matter 50, years ago. I like the old way better.
Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers would disagree with you:
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan [Muslim], the Hindoo [Hindu], and Infidel of every denomination."

I commend you TB. That says VOLUMES!!!!

Seems we have lost our path. To reject the insertion of "Jesus Christ" because it was seen as exclusion and to leave it open to provide inclusion. Unless, you fabricated that, seems our forefathers were not endorsing Christianity as so many on here have pontificated.
 
There are 35 christian based main denominations in the USA. Also numerous others name it and claim it denominations. Now looks like we have freedom of religion every where. We also can name other religions that are here and they are as devout in their belief as the one tom cruise belongs to. Now pick one that needs to be given favor by letting its prayers be prayed in school.
 

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