the question of "objective"

[robert]

there are some times when strangers go out of their way to gently nudge you in the right direction; Robert is that person in this situation. Instead of asking about why or how, you chose to just argue that you are right. this approach will cost you money and time that you can not get back.

we make these comments because we really want to help you out. the road you are on puts you in real danger and if you really like being in the cattle breeding business you should explore every concept and suggestion. the most successful people i know ask twice as many questions as they make statements. i don't remember a single question you have posed.

Robert,
Sorry to disappoint you, I don't see it your way. That's OK, I still like to see what you guys are using for breeding. Oh and, yes I do ask why, you just don't see it. I believe there is a thread "If not Objective then who" Isn't that a question? Besides, I've not decided whether you know what you are doing yet. I just can't see throwing out all the experts - true experts - guidance and follow you? Have you ever been to the CAB website and read the info ther? (question)
I do explore every concept and suggestion - doesn't mean I have to agree or take your suggestions. I research my info before I act. Lots of reading has gone into planning my heard not "seat of the pants" . There is really no point in having an association if you do not use their resources and simply believe "you" are smarter. I prefer to make "informed" decisions. I add in what I gather here and other places, then make a decision.

As far as questions go, most of what I need to know, you are not qualified to answer. Genetics. Sorry, phenotype alone does not get it. PERIOD.

However, you can help with your opinions on AI sires you like/dislike. Dispositions, and other things.
Have an awesome day
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

The opinion I gave was generously endorsed by Aero, I'm not looking for followers and what I wrote is worth exactly what you paid for it, and therefore I'm neither disappointed nor surprised you disregard it.

I've only been an Angus breeder for 22 years, so you would be much better off seeking the opinions of folks who are paid more than I to know how to breed Angus cattle, university staff, association reps, veterinarians etc. after all they see probably thousands more cattle than I.

But, from my little perspective I also see that none of these vaunted professionals actually have a vested financial interest in a working registered Angus herd so perhaps experience might trump 'credentials' after all. Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[vclavin]

The opinion I gave was generously endorsed by Aero, I'm not looking for followers and what I wrote is worth exactly what you paid for it, and therefore I'm neither disappointed nor surprised you disregard it.

I've only been an Angus breeder for 22 years, so you would be much better off seeking the opinions of folks who are paid more than I to know how to breed Angus cattle, university staff, association reps, veterinarians etc. after all they see probably thousands more cattle than I.

But, from my little perspective I also see that none of these vaunted professionals actually have a vested financial interest in a working registered Angus herd so perhaps experience might trump 'credentials' after all. Good luck in your endeavors.

Don Laughlins family raise registered Angus cattle, as does Ben Eggers of Sydenstricker ( helps me also) Shawn Deering - beef specialist - works closely with Angus breeders and producers. Need I go on? I'd say that's a lot of years of Angus. Oh , Vet works the Circle A cattle here up N. Mo. At the feedlot. He feeds a few out himself.
I've Been raising cattle since 1981 , hubby since he was a kid - dairy. (lapse of around 10 years or so of no cattle) Changed to registered in 2000.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

 

[robert]

ben and don are great people but they draw a paycheck from someone else. does this mean they don't have your interests and success at heart? Absolutely not! do they live and die by their or your breeding mistakes? Probably not.

I don't have a large herd, I'm sure as sh## not going to set the world on fire, but too many times the latest greatest has been the woefullest weakest so when we find or breed a bull that works we're going to use him for as long as we feasibly can. When it works we try and make lots more of them. The three most important pieces of information on the certificate are, in order, the breeders name, the pedigree and the performance.

 

[VanC]

I think there are many on several boards that are greatly underestimated. You can't replace the good common sense that a cattleman with experience has, but many of them are living in the past and refuse to use the tools available to them. Beef quality went down hill in recent years, it was probably ignored in favor of more pounds weaned, with the testing available it can be brought back. Nothing worse than eating a steak as tough and flavorful as a piece of shoe leather. At least Val is paying attention to quality in her animals, others could take some pointers where that is concerned. :cowboy:

Very good post.

The truth is in the frogskins. Let me see your ethical bottom line (or top line per animal in Val's case). $2,500 each for three bull calves from one cow sounds pretty good to me. Any one here beat this?

Sounds good, but is it really? A higher price doesn't necessarily mean a higher profit, just as higher weaning weights and higher yearling weights don't necessarily mean higher profits. You have to look at the input costs, too. I know you don't need an example, but I'll give you one anyway:

Let's say I sell my bulls for $3000 but it costs me $2500 to get them to that point. Frankie sells her bulls for $2500 but it only costs her $1000 to get them there. Who's better off? Then let's say times get tough and the price of everyone's bulls drops an average of $1000. What happens then? Answer: Frankie is still making a profit and I'm stocking shelves at Wal Mart for $8 an hour.

 

[HerefordSire]

Van...I agree, but I didn't think anyone would want to share net profit...plus not all of us have the same overhead, such as land payments, etc. Generally, I would think the higher the gross sales, the higher the likelihood of net profit.

 

[HerefordSire]

Unbelievable. Valerie, with an attitude like that, you'd better stick with the paid professionals. You're not going to get any help from the guys in the trenches who actually deal with the cattle and the producers.

On the contrary, it could be that Val could help the crowd that are stuck in a rut and are not willing to adapt to their full potential of breeding cattle.

 

[vclavin]

Unbelievable. Valerie, with an attitude like that, you'd better stick with the paid professionals. You're not going to get any help from the guys in the trenches who actually deal with the cattle and the producers.

On the contrary, it could be that Val could help the crowd that are stuck in a rut and are not willing to adapt to their full potential of breeding cattle.

Thanks, by the way. At what age do you sell your Angus and Hereford, etc Registered Bulls? We sell ours as yearlings. ASAP after ultrasound,yearling data, and semen testing. Don't always get them all sold that quick, especially since calf prices fell. Last 3 we sold were alittle over a year ols, 2 reg Angus and 1 1/2 Angus for $4000.00 for the 3 . Not so good but needed the space for the next group.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

 

[krenwic]

buying animals from anyone means your breeding results are inferior the "theory" is correct except you have to start with good stock from the beginning. You cannot get blood out of a turnip. The idea that you can "breed em up" does not work when you start with shitballers.

Amazing the 360 you (guys) made in the last 5 years.

i agree with it being important to start right. what i was referring to is the folks who constantly go to big breeders for the next big thing. when you are starting out, i can understand; 10 years later is a different story.

who exactly are you referring to in "you (guys)"? :tiphat:

Aero, was just referring to the operation in NC and how the philosophy has changed over the years. That's all.

krenwic

 

[Aero]

Aero, was just referring to the operation in NC and how the philosophy has changed over the years. That's all.

krenwic

well, i cant say that the entire family has changed; i have and am currently doing my own thing while explaining my reasoning to them as we go along. they are on their 2nd year of using an Aubrac bull on part of the commercial cows so i must be making some headway.

thanks for noticing. ;-)

 

[Northern Rancher]

I actually bought a South Devon cow with the Hairpin brand on her for $600-flushed her and sold three bull calves for $7500 and got a 4H heifer for the kids-then I quit while I was ahead lol.

 

[Angus In Texas]

I think there are many on several boards that are greatly underestimated. You can't replace the good common sense that a cattleman with experience has, but many of them are living in the past and refuse to use the tools available to them. Beef quality went down hill in recent years, it was probably ignored in favor of more pounds weaned, with the testing available it can be brought back. Nothing worse than eating a steak as tough and flavorful as a piece of shoe leather. At least Val is paying attention to quality in her animals, others could take some pointers where that is concerned. :cowboy:

Very good post.

The truth is in the frogskins. Let me see your ethical bottom line (or top line per animal in Val's case). $2,500 each for three bull calves from one cow sounds pretty good to me. Any one here beat this?

I bought a bred heifer for $3,000 and sold her second calf for $15,000 :cboy:

What happened to discussing the original topic?

 

[vclavin]

I bought a bred heifer for $3,000 and sold her second calf for $15,000

What happened to discussing the original topic?

AngusInTexas, may I ask what blood lines they were out of?
Congratulations on the sale of the calf for $15,000, mind sharing what made this calf so valuable?
Val

 

[Angus In Texas]

Well she is a Riverbend Mile High daughter out of a Future Direction daughter going back to GAR Ext 614 on her dam's side. Makes her a double bred rita. GAR Ext 544 and GAR Ext 614 are sisters. Her reg # is 15800823. She tested AMF and NHF. However, her sire is AMC/NHF and her dam is NHC/AMF. None of the genetic defects had come to light when she was sold.

And honestly the only reason she is worth $15,000 is because that is what someone was willing to pay for her. Now don't get me wrong, she is incredibly thick and phenotypically correct. Her ultrasound data was superb along with her growth when compared to her contemporaries. She doesn't stand out in any one category but puts together a nice well rounded package, that at the end of the day, is what we strive to breed.

Mile High would have been a breed changer in my honest opinion, had the he tested free for genetic defects. His progeny are some of the most impressive cattle I have seen..... doesn't matter what you breed him to, they just stood out. For being a 1407 son, his daughters have very good rear structure and udder quality. Two of 1407's biggest flaws.

I honestly don't believe in outrageous prices for cattle other than possibly stud bulls that will bring in money through the sale of semen, but if someone is willing to pay then I am more than willing to reap the benefits.

 

[vclavin]

Well she is a Riverbend Mile High daughter out of a Future Direction daughter going back to GAR Ext 614 on her dam's side. Makes her a double bred rita. GAR Ext 544 and GAR Ext 614 are sisters. Her reg # is 15800823. She tested AMF and NHF. However, her sire is AMC/NHF and her dam is NHC/AMF. None of the genetic defects had come to light when she was sold.

And honestly the only reason she is worth $15,000 is because that is what someone was willing to pay for her. Now don't get me wrong, she is incredibly thick and phenotypically correct. Her ultrasound data was superb along with her growth when compared to her contemporaries. She doesn't stand out in any one category but puts together a nice well rounded package, that at the end of the day, is what we strive to breed.

Mile High would have been a breed changer in my honest opinion, had the he tested free for genetic defects. His progeny are some of the most impressive cattle I have seen..... doesn't matter what you breed him to, they just stood out. For being a 1407 son, his daughters have very good rear structure and udder quality. Two of 1407's biggest flaws.

I honestly don't believe in outrageous prices for cattle other than possibly stud bulls that will bring in money through the sale of semen, but if someone is willing to pay then I am more than willing to reap the benefits.

Thanks for the info, She has impressive EPD's. Not very many females have over $60 total beef value. Sounds like her genetics just "clicked" in all the right ways.

 

[Oldtimer]

Well she is a Riverbend Mile High daughter out of a Future Direction daughter going back to GAR Ext 614 on her dam's side. Makes her a double bred rita. GAR Ext 544 and GAR Ext 614 are sisters. Her reg # is 15800823. She tested AMF and NHF. However, her sire is AMC/NHF and her dam is NHC/AMF. None of the genetic defects had come to light when she was sold.

And honestly the only reason she is worth $15,000 is because that is what someone was willing to pay for her. Now don't get me wrong, she is incredibly thick and phenotypically correct. Her ultrasound data was superb along with her growth when compared to her contemporaries. She doesn't stand out in any one category but puts together a nice well rounded package, that at the end of the day, is what we strive to breed.

Mile High would have been a breed changer in my honest opinion, had the he tested free for genetic defects. His progeny are some of the most impressive cattle I have seen..... doesn't matter what you breed him to, they just stood out. For being a 1407 son, his daughters have very good rear structure and udder quality. Two of 1407's biggest flaws.

I honestly don't believe in outrageous prices for cattle other than possibly stud bulls that will bring in money through the sale of semen, but if someone is willing to pay then I am more than willing to reap the benefits.

Thanks for the info, She has impressive EPD's. Not very females have over $60 total beef value. Sound like her genetics just "clicked" in all the right ways.

Which is comical to me when I see it is double bred to 1680-and all the genetic defect history behind that breeding- along with production of a whole lot of cattle that can't thrive unless they have the grain bin sitting in front of them with a creep feeder for the calves-makes that cow worth about $.45 a pound to me....
I hope those that gave $15,000 can raise the promotion, emotion, and commotion necessary to make them worth that-- but in the real world of producing cattle for real production- it is a farce.... :roll: ;-)

 

[ccbr01]

The post said that this was sold before 1680 defects came out. Also, 44 is a leader in the field with interest in Ambush 28, New Day 454, Wild Fire, and New Frontier 095.

Great female! Even that Future Direction mother you have looks good. I would keep AIing her and test the calves.

 

[Aero]

ccbr01,

you missed the entire point of OT's post.

 

[ccbr01]

I was replying the the previous post by oldtimer. I can't quote things on my iPod Touch. I didn't even think about the OP.

 

[Brandonm22]

Which is comical to me when I see it is double bred to 1680-and all the genetic defect history behind that breeding- along with production of a whole lot of cattle that can't thrive unless they have the grain bin sitting in front of them with a creep feeder for the calves-makes that cow worth about $.45 a pound to me....
I hope those that gave $15,000 can raise the promotion, emotion, and commotion necessary to make them worth that-- but in the real world of producing cattle for real production- it is a farce.... :roll: ;-)

I don't like dogging a cow I have never seen even in pictures. She may be worth $15,0000 or maybe not. As for 1680, I never liked him. Can't really put a finger on why other than the daughters I came across never looked as rugged as EXTs or even as desirable as 036s (despite the lack of butt). I thought Precision was a step backwards (despite the numbers) for the breed. Scotch Cap and Pine Drive Big Sky daughters both seemed to be better phenotypically (and I may have not seen the best of 1680) not to even mention Emblazon. All THAT said Precision has a +9.53 $EN. Ignoring the genetic defect time bomb noone could have forseen, according to the numbers Precision sired daughters (and there were 5344 of them) that were more easy keeping than MOST modern Angus are.

http://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl.a ... 6TrEPik%3d

 

[Aero]

I was replying the the previous post by oldtimer. I can't quote things on my iPod Touch. I didn't even think about the OP.

yes. you missed Oldtimer's (OT's) whole point.