Other black breeds

[Frankie]

On a side note, do you mean to tell me that Gardiner's never had any of these problems in their herd? What happened to those animals? Were they submitted for tests?

If Gardiners had been up front years ago, a lot of this could have probably been avoided.

I just find it too incredible to believe that with their breeding program they never had these problem calves years ago. Precision is over 20 years old isn't he? They must be the luckiest people alive to have had all these recessive gene problems and never have had an affected calf.

Oh maybe now they are submitting but what about 8-10 years ago when these funny calves came out?

I've been doing some research on AM for my Animal Breeding paper, and this is kind of a summary of what I've read:
Gardiners' had an AM calf in the early 1990s and took it to Kansas State University to get it tested (the geneticist said it could be AM but wasn't likely). After that they raised 27,000 or some huge number of calves, and of those, they had 11-or something around that- that had the same defect as the 1st. The vets and researchers at the time said it could be environmental or disease related. Then when the 50 or whatever calves that got reported to the AAA in 2008 got the ball rolling to see whether or not it was genetically related.

Thanks for this info. I knew the Gardiners are too smart to think problems like this can be swept under the rug. They're a third generation Angus operation with the fourth generation already coming along. Commercial bull buyers know they'll be there to take care of them if they have a problem with their purchases.

 

[Frankie]

Don't have a problem with AM or fawn calf Frankie real Limi's don't have any Angus in them.

I understand. When we moved back home (1983), there were red Limousin cattle all over the place. I especially liked the bulls. But after listening to some kollege kowboys debate whether Limousin or Simmental was the easier pull on heifers, we decided to go with an Angus bull on our first cattle.

That gave me a good chuckle, good comeback there, Frankie! :clap: :lol:

Actually limousins aren't hard calvers, of the major continental breeds they are probably the easiest calving (apart from Salers, off course ;-) )

 

[redluv]

>>27,000 or some huge number of calves, and of those, they had 11-or something around that-<<

I'll leave it the board statisticians but I can't believe the incidence rate was that low.

There's an article in Beef Magazine that gave the exact numbers, fyi.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

>>27,000 or some huge number of calves, and of those, they had 11-or something around that-<<

I'll leave it the board statisticians but I can't believe the incidence rate was that low.

Why not? (I'm not picking a fight)

I know of one outfit, not too far from me, that has approximately 700 calves a year (all straight, 100% black Angus) mostly AI bred, by some of those bulls on that list. In the last 2 years (approx. 1,400 calves) they've had 1 that was tested and identified as a 'curly calf'.

It is possible that it didn't really show up in huge numbers, especially if it is a recessive thing.

Katherine

 

[VCC]

I wonder what the aborted calf numbers were, not that you would know why the calf was aborted, but with PHA a lot of those calves are aborted early on. This would make it difficult to tell if it was a defect calf or something else that caused the cow to abort.
That could explain why they only had such a small amount of calves identified with that defect.

 

[Brandonm22]

I heard Mark Gardinar speak ~a couple months ago at the AL Cattleman's Association meeting. He said that they DID have some AM calves pop up; but that the vets incorrectly diagnosed it as being the result of some toxic Kansas weed.

 

[Angus In Texas]

On a side note, do you mean to tell me that Gardiner's never had any of these problems in their herd? What happened to those animals? Were they submitted for tests?

If Gardiners had been up front years ago, a lot of this could have probably been avoided.

I just find it too incredible to believe that with their breeding program they never had these problem calves years ago. Precision is over 20 years old isn't he? They must be the luckiest people alive to have had all these recessive gene problems and never have had an affected calf.

Oh maybe now they are submitting but what about 8-10 years ago when these funny calves came out?

I've been doing some research on AM for my Animal Breeding paper, and this is kind of a summary of what I've read:
Gardiners' had an AM calf in the early 1990s and took it to Kansas State University to get it tested (the geneticist said it could be AM but wasn't likely). After that they raised 27,000 or some huge number of calves, and of those, they had 11-or something around that- that had the same defect as the 1st. The vets and researchers at the time said it could be environmental or disease related. Then when the 50 or whatever calves that got reported to the AAA in 2008 got the ball rolling to see whether or not it was genetically related.

In speaking with another large reputable breeder, they told me that they have had 7,000 calves born since they started tracking data a little over 5 years ago and have had I believe it was 30 suspect births of which 29 were double bred Precision...... but at the time noone thought anything about it and didn't have any reason to think anything about it. 30 suspect births out of 7,000 is .4%...... without knowledge of the defect it would be easy to dismiss that as natural causes or environmental.

 

[RD-Sam]

Since you have so many that are against line breeding at all, you can rule out the first 6 to 10 years of that 20. Many won't line breed at all in the first three generations, so at two years per generation minimum, plus however old the bull was before semen was used, there goes a bunch of years. Then you have hit and miss as to which animals became carriers or not. So you could have line bred for many generations and never had two carriers mated together, that could still be happening to this day with affected GAR lines in the pedigree multiple times. Some were just not as fortunate as others, and if it only happened a time or two to a ranch in 20 years, it would be dismissed.

I guess it comes down to the owners of these AI bulls to breed the bulls to their daughters and see what happens, but if the daughter is not a carrier, you will never see the problem, and if she is, you still have a 50/50 chance nothing will happen.

I can say that I am glad I know where my stock came from and know what the pedigree is, these unregistered animals or the lines created with no records are the real danger.

 

[Oldtimer]

Don't have a problem with AM or fawn calf Frankie real Limi's don't have any Angus in them.

How did these "real" Limis (and simmis, salers, and gelbvieh) come to be :???:
Were they full blood imports (which there were few of) or were they bred up fullbloods-- developed from Limi semen and commercial cows (usually red or black angus)- gradually increasing the percentage each generation until the US associations called them "purebred"... :???:

Some of the work I've seen on the Fawn Calf syndrome traces it back to cattle from 1961--before or during which much of this "purebreding" of US continental cattle was ocurring :???:

Most of the purebred continental herds I've seen- and anyways in our area- are bred up herds- and still have angus/red angus blood coursing thru their veins....

 

[Jovid]

Don't have a problem with AM or fawn calf Frankie real Limi's don't have any Angus in them.

How did these "real" Limis (and simmis, salers, and gelbvieh) come to be :???:
Were they full blood imports (which there were few of) or were they bred up fullbloods-- developed from Limi semen and commercial cows (usually red or black angus)- gradually increasing the percentage each generation until the US associations called them "purebred"... :???:

Some of the work I've seen on the Fawn Calf syndrome traces it back to cattle from 1961--before or during which much of this "purebreding" of US continental cattle was ocurring :???:

Most of the purebred continental herds I've seen- and anyways in our area- are bred up herds- and still have angus/red angus blood coursing thru their veins....

What Red Bull Breeder is saying is that his Limis are fullblood RED and not black. Just like my Red Polls are RED and not black.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Thanks Jovid. Oldtimer you breed up to a fullblood Limi. So there is no angus blood in them.

 

[Oldtimer]

Don't have a problem with AM or fawn calf Frankie real Limi's don't have any Angus in them.

How did these "real" Limis (and simmis, salers, and gelbvieh) come to be :???:
Were they full blood imports (which there were few of) or were they bred up fullbloods-- developed from Limi semen and commercial cows (usually red or black angus)- gradually increasing the percentage each generation until the US associations called them "purebred"... :???:

Some of the work I've seen on the Fawn Calf syndrome traces it back to cattle from 1961--before or during which much of this "purebreding" of US continental cattle was ocurring :???:

Most of the purebred continental herds I've seen- and anyways in our area- are bred up herds- and still have angus/red angus blood coursing thru their veins....

What Red Bull Breeder is saying is that his Limis are fullblood RED and not black. Just like my Red Polls are RED and not black.

And what I'm saying is that most "fullblood" limis were developed off a black or red angus base starting back in the 60's/70's when these continental genetics were brought in mostly by A.I. since the US has such tough FMD restrictions on importing from Europe....And both red and black angus had the genetics that are believed to go back to the Fawn Calf defect- which it sounds like now can be traced back to 1961....

So- unless you are one of the very very few- that has all cattle that were imported fullblood from Europe- there is a chance your cattle pack the defect in the angus genetics thats still in them.....

 

[Oldtimer]

Thanks Jovid. Oldtimer you breed up to a fullblood Limi. So there is no angus blood in them.

:???: :???: :???: Somewhere back there most have angus or some other breed beside Limi---And since this syndrome can be traced back to 1961--how many of those bred up to your "fullblood" had the genetic factor and passed it on thru its next generation... :???:
I started A.I.ing limi and simmi in 1969-70- and at that time most of the bulls weren't allowed into the US...You had to go to Canada to see them- but ABS had their semen available in the US....And the cattle being bred to build the "new breed" of purebred cattle were mostly all angus (red or black)- or hereford in our area...

This could easily encompass a whole lot more than just black angus- or red angus...

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Oldtimer Purebred Limis were bred up from angus or hereford or what ever breed of cow they happened to use. Fullbloods are 100% Limousin a Fullblood cannot be bred up.

 

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer Purebred Limis were bred up from angus or hereford or what ever breed of cow they happened to use. Fullbloods are 100% Limousin a Fullblood cannot be bred up.

:???: :???: :???:

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Thanks Jovid. Oldtimer you breed up to a fullblood Limi. So there is no angus blood in them.

You definitely have me confused as you're saying the exact opposite in two different posts...

So you're saying you have fullblood cattle that are totally the result of imports and have no angus/hereford/commercial cow base back 20-30-40-50 years ago ?
If so- you're one of the lucky ones, since most purebred continental herds that are selling their cattle as fullbloods (after they reach a certain percentage) have a british cow base behind them....

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Oldtimer you have been able to buy fullblood Limousin cattle in the United States of America for over twenty years. See my avatar he is a fullblood traceable bloodlines to the Limousin herd book in France.

 

[mnmtranching]

No question that there has been a lot of semen manipulation going on within the Continental seed stock. For sure only to promote and popularize their breeds. Why else would these coal black Continentals appear to be and mistaken for Black Angus? DUH. On the other hand there are some REAL good herds in the area of Red Limos, nice cattle for sure.

 

[EAT BEEF]

I don't know about limi,but in simmental a fullblood is 100% and a purebred has been bred up from a angus or whatever base.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

EatBeef & Oldtimer - you are exactly right. The word "Fullblood" in the Simmental & Limo breed MEANS 100% from imported cattle. "Purebred" means "fullblood" bulls were used on American cattle & UPGRADED. There shouldn't be any black FULLBLOODS. Well, I'll backtract a little on the Simmental breed. There was a time when people discovered imported "Fullblood" Simmentals actually contained more "other breeds" from European upgraded cattle than some of our upgraded Purebreds. So, the ASA made the rule change that "imported Fullbloods" had to go back 5 generations of Fullbloods in the European Herdbooks. Our breed actually marks the registration papers as Purebred or Fullbloods. Remember, we're not the only country that crossbreeds :banana:
The problem is that too many people don't understand the difference between Fullbloods & Purebreds. They think because they are registered PUREBREDS that that also means they are fullbloods. NOT!
Lot of times it's just a misuse of a word.

 

[Oldtimer]

Okay- Simmi-Jeane that makes it clearer...As you can tell since my experiments with the continentals in the 60's/70's, I dropped them like a hot rock and haven't had much experience with them since....

But getting back on track- I doubt, at least locally, very few of these continental herds are "Fullblood"- and most the continental seedstock providers have purebreds that were bred up from a British base-and definitely those with the blacks-which makes them open to the possibility of this Fawn Calf syndrome...

Thats why I said this could be bigger than most folks realized...