Moderate sized cows

[callmefence]

Quoted from the article: "The smaller cattle averaged 38 to 40 inches (frame score 2.6) at the hip at fall weaning, and the larger cattle averaged 43 to 44 inches (frame score 4.9). The smaller-framed cows were designated as "range" and the moderately framed cows were designated as "beef." Interestingly, the average mature (6 to 8 years of age) weight was 1,295 pounds for the "range" cows and 1,522 pounds for the "beef" cows."

I would consider the "beef" cows in this study to be moderate also. I would have been more interested in a study with the "beef" herd being frame score 6 1800 lb cows.

Everything is based off averages and the study is pretty much is dead on. Only hobby farmers or people who have more money than sense have 1800lb cows.

I think the study has merit and I wasn't intending to take away from that. However, do you know of many commercial cattle operations who seek frame score 3 or lower bulls. What about a frame score 5 or smaller?

That has nothing to do with what the study was focused on

 

[CattleMan1920]

Comparing a calf to a herd sire ...Ive been a fan of net worth. Hes a hoss.But I like better examples than that...

I was just making a generalization, but even when the GAR bull is fully mature he wouldn't hold a candle to Net Worth. I've seen Net Worth daughters and they are excellent.

We're not holding candles we're producing beef to eat. A GAR bull will beat a Net Worth bull in a overall carcass quality every time, and do it on less imputs. I know your not worried about inputs but real cattlemen are.

So "real" cattlemen avoid SAV genetics? That's laughable.

 

[bird dog]

This real cattleman does. Or as real as my budget allows which is why I look at the economics. I need what works. I have few of those red mot cows in the 975 to 1050 range like in the picture. They wean off a calf at 60 to 65% of their weigh almost every year if I have decent forage. Ain't no 1800lb cow gonna do that.
As I have said before, two modest priced 1000 lb cows weaning off 600 lb calves will cash flow more than one 1800 lb high price registered animal weaning off a 850 lber.

 

[Ebenezer]

Another study wasted on individual opinions. Wonder why researchers even try?

 

[Lazy M]

Or a bull like this?

https://youtu.be/3lHv6oy90CQ

Net Worth is below breed average in virtually every measurable value, with very high accuracy.
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl.aspx?aid=FAAAAO2ryzSd6PY1%2bHctHKcTKCNUceXjCiUCkTCEIqKIAhiD&time=LAAAAJOs0y37Togx%2btipKSlm%2b3z%2fxj7vcD3EttV68xeuwHzdlD2dxakoJ5PaaJU9f2AXMA%3d%3d
I'm not much of a GAR fan, but I believe I'd go with the GAR bull in your comparison..

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Back to the study. This is a little deceiving. The frame scores were at weaning. Yes, a frame score 4 at weaning "should" be a 4 frame score at maturity. BUT, these weights sound off - not the offspring carcass weights - the weights of the "mature" cows. Cattle that are stunted while nursing, can be a lot smaller frame score at weaning, and then with proper nutrition, can grow into their normal frame score. I sure would have liked to know the mature frame score. That would be a lot of tanks running around with no legs.

 

[bball]

Excellent article with some real food for thought supported by evidence and numbers. I like that. A LOT!

I also liked this from the article, and I know it been said here before in assorted versions:
Yes, this is a story of real data. The bottom line: Producers need to use the management and genetics that fit their operation and adapt accordingly.

 

[Stocker Steve]

So moderate cow, (slighty) stunted calf, and some backgrounding could be the low cost feeder production system ?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Not what I was thinking. I have a hard to "believing" they are 2.6 frame MATURE cows.
They had 2.6 frame weighing nearly 1300# and they had 4.9 (almost twice the frame size) weighing 1500# (I can believe)
Do people really know how SHORT a 2.6 frame animal is. They are runts. Like I said, they would have to be a tank with VERY short legs.
I have mature cows that would nearly fall into those weights (1400-1600#) and I would consider them moderate. But, I can guarantee they are not a 2.6 frame. 5.5 - 6 frame yes. And they are short legged.

 

[CattleMan1920]

To each their own, and I appreciate your opinion.

Net Worth daughters are what I'm after, not sons.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Imagine, at one time nobody wanted Angus because they were too small. LOL! Now they are too big. I repeat people in my area didn't want Angus, because they were after higher weaning weights, hence the use of Simmental, Gelbveih, and Limousin. Course I'm smoking their weaning weights with purebred Angus.

I don't want Grit and others to worry about the hippos of Branded too much, if they get too unmanageable I will just breed them to a Wye bull, or GAR bull and in a couple of generations, it will be "Honey who shrunk the cattle" scenario.

Taking frame down is a breeze, going the other way takes some time and effort.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

I think a lot of people do not actually weigh or measure their stock and love to claim to have heavy moderated animals. I suspect that the vast majority of breeders would be shocked at the actual numbers if their cattle were weighed on a certified scale and put under a measuring stick...... horse people are almost as bad at guessing frames and weights....

 

[CattleMan1920]

You'd think they'd be more worried with what grows along the backbone....
In all seriousness. Does anyone see the advantage in trying to turn the Angus breed into these giant and overweight outlier's. That for the most part are going to be of poorer quality than their smaller counterparts.

I mean we already have large framed heavy muscling cattle to fill this niche.
Where the black Angus has long been known as a moderate framed animal that produces a quality and perfect sized steak. The Angus had reined king of that. I would say if you want to improve on the black Angus. Make him smaller.
With the even better marbling waygu

They were small at one point, and people complained, and worked tirelessly to make them big, now that they are big, they want them small, or they cross them with other breeds to put "muscle" on them.

It's ridiculous.

I've yet to talk to anyone in commercial that has ever asked. "Do you have a bull that will assure me of low weaning weights?" Never! In fact it's the first thing they ask about. You guys must be a different group entirely. When someone comes out to look at a bull, they sure don't gravitate towards the smallest bulls of the bunch. In fact the smaller ones are the hardest ones to sell.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I think a lot of people do not actually weigh or measure their stock and love to claim to have heavy moderated animals. I suspect that the vast majority of breeders would be shocked at the actual numbers if their cattle were weighed on a certified scale and put under a measuring stick...... horse people are almost as bad at guessing frames and weights....

BR and TT saw my setup, Tru Test scales, I know exactly what mine weigh, and post photos online of the scale and cows inside the chute with not an inch of room to spare.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

I think a lot of people do not actually weigh or measure their stock and love to claim to have heavy moderated animals. I suspect that the vast majority of breeders would be shocked at the actual numbers if their cattle were weighed on a certified scale and put under a measuring stick...... horse people are almost as bad at guessing frames and weights....

BR and TT saw my setup, Tru Test scales, I know exactly what mine weigh, and post photos online of the scale and cows inside the chute with not an inch of room to spare.

1. I was not pointing to your program specifically. Not my ponies, not my circus.
2. Do you like your Tru Test? Do you use the trough style one, or load bars under a chute? Just curious...

 

[ALACOWMAN]

You'd think they'd be more worried with what grows along the backbone....
In all seriousness. Does anyone see the advantage in trying to turn the Angus breed into these giant and overweight outlier's. That for the most part are going to be of poorer quality than their smaller counterparts.

I mean we already have large framed heavy muscling cattle to fill this niche.
Where the black Angus has long been known as a moderate framed animal that produces a quality and perfect sized steak. The Angus had reined king of that. I would say if you want to improve on the black Angus. Make him smaller.
With the even better marbling waygu

They were small at one point, and people complained, and worked tirelessly to make them big, now that they are big, they want them small, or they cross them with other breeds to put "muscle" on them.

It's ridiculous.

I've yet to talk to anyone in commercial that has ever asked. "Do you have a bull that will assure me of low weaning weights?" Never! In fact it's the first thing they ask about. You guys must be a different group entirely. When someone comes out to look at a bull, they sure don't gravitate towards the smallest bulls of the bunch. In fact the smaller ones are the hardest ones to sell.

I'm betting most of your bull buyers are like the majority ..no idea what they actually need for their herd....that's the biggest reason fat sells

 

[CattleMan1920]

I think a lot of people do not actually weigh or measure their stock and love to claim to have heavy moderated animals. I suspect that the vast majority of breeders would be shocked at the actual numbers if their cattle were weighed on a certified scale and put under a measuring stick...... horse people are almost as bad at guessing frames and weights....

BR and TT saw my setup, Tru Test scales, I know exactly what mine weigh, and post photos online of the scale and cows inside the chute with not an inch of room to spare.

1. I was not pointing to your program specifically. Not my ponies, not my circus.
2. Do you like your Tru Test? Do you use the trough style one, or load bars under a chute? Just curious...

I know you weren't talking about us.

I have the load bars under the chute. The chute is on concrete pad.

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

I'm surprised you have found that set-up preferable BH. We had the same and ended up scrapping the bars after repeated repairs (manufacturer repaired). With bigger cows like you have (not a dig, just a fact), I'm surprised you have not run into issues with them also. After using both the load bars and the trough style (also needed repeated manufacturer repairs), we went to a Rice Lake Weighing Systems platform and read-out. Super heavy to move and not cheap, but it has never missed a beat in 10 years, is dead on accurate (certified every couple of years), and I like the big flat platform. I weigh everything from dogs to horses and feed stuffs on it.

 

[CattleMan1920]

You'd think they'd be more worried with what grows along the backbone....
In all seriousness. Does anyone see the advantage in trying to turn the Angus breed into these giant and overweight outlier's. That for the most part are going to be of poorer quality than their smaller counterparts.

I mean we already have large framed heavy muscling cattle to fill this niche.
Where the black Angus has long been known as a moderate framed animal that produces a quality and perfect sized steak. The Angus had reined king of that. I would say if you want to improve on the black Angus. Make him smaller.
With the even better marbling waygu

They were small at one point, and people complained, and worked tirelessly to make them big, now that they are big, they want them small, or they cross them with other breeds to put "muscle" on them.

It's ridiculous.

I've yet to talk to anyone in commercial that has ever asked. "Do you have a bull that will assure me of low weaning weights?" Never! In fact it's the first thing they ask about. You guys must be a different group entirely. When someone comes out to look at a bull, they sure don't gravitate towards the smallest bulls of the bunch. In fact the smaller ones are the hardest ones to sell.

I'm betting most of your bull buyers are like the majority ..no idea what they actually need for their herd....that's the biggest reason fat sells

I understand what you are saying, but those type of buyers usually don't buy their bulls from Branded, the price of our bulls usually weeds out the buyer you are describing.

Also, it's presumptive on your part to infer that our bulls don't work for our clients. They have worked out very well for them. I've sold bulls to some very sharp people who went over the epds with a fine tooth comb, not to mention they want to see the sire and dam in person. That rarely happens in most auction settings, which to me, is flying blind. I take time with my clients, that's a fact.

As for fat, my bulls aren't fat. Ask BR and TT, they stood right beside them. I had another bull sell recently and he was definitely not fat, more like diesel.

It is highly beneficial for my business that the bulls we sell work out well for my clients. They have success, they come back for more.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I'm surprised you have found that set-up preferable BH. We had the same and ended up scrapping the bars after repeated repairs (manufacturer repaired). With bigger cows like you have (not a dig, just a fact), I'm surprised you have not run into issues with them also. After using both the load bars and the trough style (also needed repeated manufacturer repairs), we went to a Rice Lake Weighing Systems platform and read-out. Super heavy to move and not cheap, but it has never missed a beat in 10 years, is dead on accurate (certified every couple of years), and I like the big flat platform. I weigh everything from dogs to horses and feed stuffs on it.

I bought the most heavy duty load bars that Tru Test offered. So far I have not had a single issue with them.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the Priefert S04 chute and load bars, but....

Moving forward we are going to build an entirely new working facility, and will be going with a Silencer chute and a scale setup like you describe. I've seen the Silencer on a few occasions and I am sold.