Bright Raven
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":1lgh3783 said:
I prepare my taxes and that is my understanding. But it would not be my first tax mistake if I am doing it wrong.
Making the best black baldy cattle
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I prepare my taxes and that is my understanding. But it would not be my first tax mistake if I am doing it wrong.
Post Oak
Well-known member
+1Rafter S":2671bzz1 said:
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Post Oak":3c3phgz8 said:
Only a liability until you sell a calf or the heifer. She has no value till sold.
I think we are a long way from his question. And are :bang: :bang:
I Think it would work great but would try to do it slower. I would probably buy the line breed Herf or sim whichever you think would work best for your area. Once you have your baldy cow herd go back with a line breed angus 2 or three generations until you think you need some more hybrid vigor. This way your calf crop would be more consistent. Feeders need consistency and will pay for it.
I Think it would work great but would try to do it slower. I would probably buy the line breed Herf or sim whichever you think would work best for your area. Once you have your baldy cow herd go back with a line breed angus 2 or three generations until you think you need some more hybrid vigor. This way your calf crop would be more consistent. Feeders need consistency and will pay for it.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":12k0ml3j said:
Come on CB, that makes no sense at all to me. If a cow didn't have any value till she was sold you couldn't use them as collateral for a loan. I feel the value of my cattle rises and falls with the market. If we don't get a inch or two of rain by Tuesday, another trailer load will be heading to the sale this week. Cows are like money in the bank to me.
Caustic Burno":2ndytmn5 said:
Every calf that is born is a liability by your standards. So do you leave your cows open so you can avoid the liability? Or do you sell them every year and buy back pairs so you can avoid the liability? I highly doubt either. So all we do when we retain a heifer is extend the liability a little longer if you want to call it that. I personally don't feel it is a liability but evidently you do.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Common Grit your smarter than that collateral is only the value of what something can be sold for. It has no value except till sold. The cow produced a calf that is sold that is where value is generated.
The cow has no value other than the product she provides. Everything thing else is a liability
The cow has no value other than the product she provides. Everything thing else is a liability
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":2a578zlx said:
So if I take your cows it's alright since the cows have no value? You can't use something as collateral if it has no value. I'll go as far as calling cows a liquid asset. Your dead wrong on this one and to hard headed to admit it.
Wyo1":34q4ri72 said:
This is one of the main reasons many of us retain heifers. Most of the time they are related. Half sisters or more. This over time makes for a more uniform calf crop in frame size and quality. And why the feeders will pay more for them. Basically what we have been trying to get across. You don't get that by buying a new set of heifers or cows every year or so.
There is a breeder I go by regularly. He raised good Polled Herefords for years. Starting at least 15 years ago and maybe as many as 20 he started rotating Angus bulls and Herefords. It has worked well for him and his calves always sell good. Over the entire time I've seen maybe 4-5 red baldies. The rest black baldies and motleys. He rotates every time he changes bulls. He will use one for 2-3 years and then bring in the other breed for the next 2-3 years. His cattle have a reputation and any heifers he doesn't retain have a ready market.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Nothing has value till you convert it to cash. Everything is a liability until converted to cash.
You don't own your place you rent it if you don't believe that don't pay the taxes and see how long the county takes to convert it to cash.
You don't own your place you rent it if you don't believe that don't pay the taxes and see how long the county takes to convert it to cash.
Caustic Burno":1yf2p5of said:
But you said a cow that is purchased has value but one that was raised and retained don't. I don't agree with that. Either they do or the don't. And I say they have value. If there was no value involved there would be no need to get appraisals.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
elkwc":1jebq4id said:
Or livestock insurance.
Bright Raven
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":ge3i6cgt said:
You were doing well but that is not right. Even rudimentary economics dictates assets have value and that is determined by the process of estimating a fair market value.
If you have 10 feeder steers at 700 pounds each are you inclined to try to tell us they have ZERO value?
If your statement was true then barter would not exist:
exchange (goods or services) for other goods or services without using money.
Guys, you are not going to get CB to admit to retain heifers. Just accept it and move on. 
The tax deal is a wash. There are no tax benefits one way or another.
Let's say you keep a calf until 8mo before you sell. It sells for $750. Many people think if they keep that heifer they lost that revenue. In a way they did but it's only because they reinvested it. Their money is still there, it's just invested in another asset, the heifer. It's like taking your dividends and having them automatically buy more stock.
The next stage is from 8mo until she is bred. Every ones operation is different so it will cost every one a different amount to hold them.
Once they are bred that time gets billed to their calf, just like a cow raising a calf. If it costs you $350 to raise a call with a cow, it should be simular.
There are are some that may not breed. They will sell at packer prices. If there is a deficit that will have to be divided among the heifers in production.
Keep in mind there could be flat out loss. That cost will also have to be divided among the productive heifers.
When you add all those numbers up you can see if keeping heifers works for your operation.
If you can sell a few heifers to individuals it really helps the numbers .
The tax deal is a wash. There are no tax benefits one way or another.
Let's say you keep a calf until 8mo before you sell. It sells for $750. Many people think if they keep that heifer they lost that revenue. In a way they did but it's only because they reinvested it. Their money is still there, it's just invested in another asset, the heifer. It's like taking your dividends and having them automatically buy more stock.
The next stage is from 8mo until she is bred. Every ones operation is different so it will cost every one a different amount to hold them.
Once they are bred that time gets billed to their calf, just like a cow raising a calf. If it costs you $350 to raise a call with a cow, it should be simular.
There are are some that may not breed. They will sell at packer prices. If there is a deficit that will have to be divided among the heifers in production.
Keep in mind there could be flat out loss. That cost will also have to be divided among the productive heifers.
When you add all those numbers up you can see if keeping heifers works for your operation.
If you can sell a few heifers to individuals it really helps the numbers .
Brute 23":3ebleou6 said:Guys, you are not going to get CB to admit to retain heifers. Just accept it and move on.
The tax deal is a wash. There are no tax benefits one way or another.
Let's say you keep a calf until 8mo before you sell. It sells for $750. Many people think if they keep that heifer they lost that revenue. In a way they did but it's only because they reinvested it. Their money is still there, it's just invested in another asset, the heifer. It's like taking your dividends and having them automatically buy more stock.
The next stage is from 8mo until she is bred. Every ones operation is different so it will cost every one a different amount to hold them.
Once they are bred that time gets billed to their calf, just like a cow raising a calf. If it costs you $350 to raise a call with a cow, it should be simular.
There are are some that may not breed. They will sell at packer prices. If there is a deficit that will have to be divided among the heifers in production.
Keep in mind there could be flat out loss. That cost will also have to be divided among the productive heifers.
When you add all those numbers up you can see if keeping heifers works for your operation.
If you can sell a few heifers to individuals it really helps the numbers .
Well stated. Retaining heifers isn't the best choice for everyone. But for many it is the best choice. I don't care if he retains heifers or not. But just because he choses not too doesn't mean that he should push everyone else including those new to owning cattle not too.
plumber_greg
Well-known member
CB states that retaining heifers is a crapshoot on which ones will turn out to be good cows. Can tell he has no experience doing this. One thing I can assure someone is that I can save every heifer out of 100 cows of mine, and they will all turn out to be cows. No later culling will be necessary. I just don't, after generations of retaining them, have any that won't make cows. I may have a small percentage open when bred in a 70 day period, but even that is getting smaller and smaller.
Where in the world does those good cows he claims he buys come from? If everyone is broke saving heifers, how can there be commercial cows available? Accidently bred ones in the feedlot, I guess.
In order to gain net worth and retirement income, assets must be acculimated. If it all was about cash money, and how much can I make today, assets cannot be stockpiled.
Where in the world does those good cows he claims he buys come from? If everyone is broke saving heifers, how can there be commercial cows available? Accidently bred ones in the feedlot, I guess.
In order to gain net worth and retirement income, assets must be acculimated. If it all was about cash money, and how much can I make today, assets cannot be stockpiled.
Bright Raven
Well-known member
plumber_greg":wkbbnx7n said:
CB, did not take Economics 101. It was a general education requirement or I would not have taken it - boring as watching paint dry. Nevertheless, I wanted an A , so I read the damm book. You just stated a fundamental principle of accumulating wealth! It is not just holding currency. It is the assets you hold. You get a gold star.
CB makes some good points that ever one needs to consider but I agree what works for one does not work for all.
We buy and retain cattle. I cull just as many purchased cattle as retained cattle, if not more.
What I like about retaining them is any where along the way I can sell them and usually get real close to breaking even just on weight gain. I've got 2 heifers right now that have had their first calf and are bred back. I'm not real happy with them so I am going to sell them as bred 2nd calf heifers, or 3N1s. One man's trash is another man's treasure. As long as I am honest with the buyer and sell at what we both agree is fair, I have no problem with it. I will get my money back on them, or so close it won't matter.
Friend of mine just sent me a pic Friday of a black heifer he bought from me bred back to a tigerstripe bull. It has a good little red and white calf standing beside her. He's happy as can be. I sell off every thing that doesn't carry as much ear as I would like but a lot of people specifically want those so it works good for both of us.
We buy and retain cattle. I cull just as many purchased cattle as retained cattle, if not more.
What I like about retaining them is any where along the way I can sell them and usually get real close to breaking even just on weight gain. I've got 2 heifers right now that have had their first calf and are bred back. I'm not real happy with them so I am going to sell them as bred 2nd calf heifers, or 3N1s. One man's trash is another man's treasure. As long as I am honest with the buyer and sell at what we both agree is fair, I have no problem with it. I will get my money back on them, or so close it won't matter.
Friend of mine just sent me a pic Friday of a black heifer he bought from me bred back to a tigerstripe bull. It has a good little red and white calf standing beside her. He's happy as can be. I sell off every thing that doesn't carry as much ear as I would like but a lot of people specifically want those so it works good for both of us.
