Making the best black baldy cattle

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Clodhopper":11bdd2yc said:
WalnutCrest":11bdd2yc said:
I like (a lot) your idea of line bed cows going to unrelated linebred bulls.

My thoughts ...

LB cow x LB bull = retained heifer F1
...keep making these F1s...

F1 heifer x CE bull of third breed = market calves

F1 cows x great herd sire of third breed = commercial replacement heifers and cows to get bred back to builds related to your original line bred cows ... the beginning of a three way cross ...
I think that would be ideal. However, I don't have the funds to sell out and buy the linebred herd of cows. Although my herd is of different breeds, they are similar in frame size, and I've culled for similar characteristics. It's probably the best I could do to start with the linebred bulls and go from there, in order to maintain numbers. I know, given the different breeds, I'll never get the consistency as if I were to do what you suggest, but it would be as close as I could get this way.

A free creative idea ...

Sell your cows. Use the money to buy as many s you're able of what you want. Fill the rest of your pasture with stockers owned by someone else who is paying you on a per head per day basis ... keep the top __% of your heifer crop until your herd size is back up and take fewer contact stockers each year ... leads to smaller winter feed bills the next couple of summers ... etc ...

Variable stocking rate is good for your land, too.
 
Let me give you something else to think about. You mentioned alternating bull breeds. I'd suggest picking one and sticking with it. Work toward all Angus (or, even better, Brangus if you're far enough south) cows and a Hereford bull. Sell all the calves. There should always be a good market for the steers and heifers. Buy your breeding stock when needed. That way you'll always have a consistent herd.
 
There is a tax advantage to selling cattle used for breeding. I think if you've used a bull or cow for breeding and then sell it's taxed at 15%. Don't quote me on that, but my tax man always asks me what I sold that was breeding stock.
 
Rafter S":1t584hh8 said:
Let me give you something else to think about. You mentioned alternating bull breeds. I'd suggest picking one and sticking with it. Work toward all Angus (or, even better, Brangus if you're far enough south) cows and a Hereford bull. Sell all the calves. There should always be a good market for the steers and heifers. Buy your breeding stock when needed. That way you'll always have a consistent herd.
This may be a little more feasible, given my size and facilities. I don't think my market will take any ear, so I'd be better to stick with Angus.
 
Personally I have found when purchasing heifers unless you buy from a known source and know their cows that many times you end up culling a percentage after they calve for various reasons. Either they don't milk, they don't breed back, ect. I have been buying a few heifers for the last 2 years. Had better results buying older cows at registered sales. I bought some heifers this winter and hopefully they will be some of the last and I can retain females that at least I know what their mothers and sires are.
 
elkwc":34uwgs16 said:
Personally I have found when purchasing heifers unless you buy from a known source and know their cows that many times you end up culling a percentage after they calve for various reasons. Either they don't milk, they don't breed back, ect. I have been buying a few heifers for the last 2 years. Had better results buying older cows at registered sales. I bought some heifers this winter and hopefully they will be some of the last and I can retain females that at least I know what their mothers and sires are.
I agree 100%
 
Caustic Burno":26bha31i said:
WalnutCrest":26bha31i said:
Bought stock can be depreciated ... raised stock cannot. They're is a tax angle here ...
There is no financial advantage to retaining in the commercial operation.

It is different for everyone and also the area a person lives in makes a difference which is best. We have found in our situation it is cheaper for us to retain heifers and we also have a better idea what kind of cow they will make. Less culling. Like I stated before I purchased some for myself over the last 18 months. Have talked to several others that have also while trying to rebuild following the drought. Even buying the top dollar "Northern replacements" most have experienced a considerably higher cull rate than they do on their own retained heifers. I will be culling some I bought. The jury is still out on a few. I did buy some proven registered cows 4-5 y/o for about what a 2 y/0 bred would cost and they have worked out good. But unless something from a very reputable breeder comes available with a mother I can look at I hope I'm done buying any replacements. Again I maybe pickier than many are.
 
elkwc":1hh0g2jv said:
Caustic Burno":1hh0g2jv said:
WalnutCrest":1hh0g2jv said:
Bought stock can be depreciated ... raised stock cannot. They're is a tax angle here ...
There is no financial advantage to retaining in the commercial operation.

It is different for everyone and also the area a person lives in makes a difference which is best. We have found in our situation it is cheaper for us to retain heifers and we also have a better idea what kind of cow they will make. Less culling. Like I stated before I purchased some for myself over the last 18 months. Have talked to several others that have also while trying to rebuild following the drought. Even buying the top dollar "Northern replacements" most have experienced a considerably higher cull rate than they do on their own retained heifers. I will be culling some I bought. The jury is still out on a few. I did buy some proven registered cows 4-5 y/o for about what a 2 y/0 bred would cost and they have worked out good. But unless something from a very reputable breeder comes available with a mother I can look at I hope I'm done buying any replacements. Again I maybe pickier than many are.

Retaining has looser all over it by the time you get a heifer to production you have 2K in her.
You have fed two cows for two years her dam and her with no return in capital. Heifers bought or raised are always a crap shoot no matter where they come from.
The purchased heifer starts off with a tax advantage secondly you don't have two cows not contributing to the bottom line for two years.
 
I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.
 
Post Oak":10c6pn5t said:
I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.

You think it does you can always buy the better cow cheaper than raise her.
The only advantage to retaining is genetic improvement and that doesn't exist in the terminal commercial operation.
Pasture blindness is a bad disease to be infected with.
You are leaving pounds off the scale not purchasing or using the F-1 cow and terminal bull.

https://www.noble.org/news/publications ... -or-legit/
 
Post Oak":tn4pkct7 said:
I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.

Guys that are buying sale barn cows are not worried about herd health too much I don't think. Not that a guy will automatically have a problem with those cattle but, as you pointed out, there is not much worry about bringing anything in. It may already be there with all the sale barn cows he's already bought. Bought for slaughter price or a little above, who cares, right? (that's the sense I get out of some the statements)

CB, unless you are trolling, I would appreciate a more detailed explanation, particularly the above post, lines one and two.

I have kept heifers and bought heifers. The cow only loses one year, not two, without an outside check. She still makes money that year, on the heifer she raised, which she sold to the on-farm Heifer Development Program. :lol2:

The retained heifers I can "buy" a better quality, I think, than I can get on the market for the same money. Plus the advantages PO mentioned of being familiar with the program, known health history, etc.

Upgrading in genetics and shortening the time you have to fool with heifers/keep them alive/feed/etc is the only reason I see of buying, which I admit, seems to be some pretty good reasons. But if not trying to bring in better genetics, and if a guy enjoys the extra work and development, around here you can raise your own cheaper than you can buy good quality developed heifers six months out. By about 700 bucks or so/hd as of last fall. Now my heifers may not be the quality of those I used in my figuring, but they look good, out of older cows that have survived the cuts here for 9 or 10 yrs, so there is that.

I look forward to your, and others, reply and discussion as this is a topic I am interested in seeing how others view it, calculate it, and average end results.

Not meant to highjack your thread Clodhopper, and I am not raising black baldies, so I may need to delete this to keep from taking off on a tangent?
 
talltimber":yc3tgqn9 said:
Post Oak":yc3tgqn9 said:
I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.

Guys that are buying sale barn cows are not worried about herd health too much I don't think. Not that a guy will automatically have a problem with those cattle but, as you pointed out, there is not much worry about bringing anything in. It may already be there with all the sale barn cows he's already bought. Bought for slaughter price or a little above, who cares, right? (that's the sense I get out of some the statements)

CB, unless you are trolling, I would appreciate a more detailed explanation, particularly the above post, lines one and two.

I have kept heifers and bought heifers. The cow only loses one year, not two, without an outside check. She still makes money that year, on the heifer she raised, which she sold to the on-farm Heifer Development Program. :lol2:

The retained heifers I can "buy" a better quality, I think, than I can get on the market for the same money. Plus the advantages PO mentioned of being familiar with the program, known health history, etc.

Upgrading in genetics and shortening the time you have to fool with heifers/keep them alive/feed/etc is the only reason I see of buying, which I admit, seems to be some pretty good reasons. But if not trying to bring in better genetics, and if a guy enjoys the extra work and development, around here you can raise your own cheaper than you can buy good quality developed heifers six months out. By about 700 bucks or so/hd as of last fall. Now my heifers may not be the quality of those I used in my figuring, but they look good, out of older cows that have survived the cuts here for 9 or 10 yrs, so there is that.

I look forward to your, and others, reply and discussion as this is a topic I am interested in seeing how others view it, calculate it, and average end results.

Not meant to highjack your thread Clodhopper, and I am not raising black baldies, so I may need to delete this to keep from taking off on a tangent?

You better sharpen your pencil you maintained that cow 730 days with no return. That retained heifer is not an asset but a liability until she returns income to the operation that is another roughly 730 days. Using the low end of the scale at a dollar a day you have 1460 dollars in that heifer that has produced nothing. Realistically cost run closer to 1.50 a day so that puts you 2190 in the hole. If she falls over dead there is no tax advantage left in her as she came free by IRS rules, all you can write off is operating cost.
The better cow has depreciation value as well giving you a higher return on your invested income.
Secondly unless your a large operation that can raise a true F-1 using a terminal sire your are leaving money on the table and not running a better cow.
 
Caustic Burno":3k433yio said:
elkwc":3k433yio said:
Caustic Burno":3k433yio said:
There is no financial advantage to retaining in the commercial operation.

It is different for everyone and also the area a person lives in makes a difference which is best. We have found in our situation it is cheaper for us to retain heifers and we also have a better idea what kind of cow they will make. Less culling. Like I stated before I purchased some for myself over the last 18 months. Have talked to several others that have also while trying to rebuild following the drought. Even buying the top dollar "Northern replacements" most have experienced a considerably higher cull rate than they do on their own retained heifers. I will be culling some I bought. The jury is still out on a few. I did buy some proven registered cows 4-5 y/o for about what a 2 y/0 bred would cost and they have worked out good. But unless something from a very reputable breeder comes available with a mother I can look at I hope I'm done buying any replacements. Again I maybe pickier than many are.

Retaining has looser all over it by the time you get a heifer to production you have 2K in her.
You have fed two cows for two years her dam and her with no return in capital. Heifers bought or raised are always a crap shoot no matter where they come from.
The purchased heifer starts off with a tax advantage secondly you don't have two cows not contributing to the bottom line for two years.
Don't understand how you figure you have two cows not contributing. Her dam is still having calves. I know many very successful commercial cattlemen who have bought and paid for ranches and they firmly believe in retaining heifers. If a breeder wants a consistent herd producing quality uniform calves in my opinion you need to retain your females so there is some consistency in breeding and type. Again what works for one don't for another. I can tell you we don't have 2K in the heifers we retain.
 
Post Oak":3nmo1q76 said:
I will retain heifers instead of purchasing heifers unless I am in a stage of rapid expansion. Retained heifers already know where the fences are and they are already adapted to my program. After generations of retaining heifers, the culling percentage decreases. Retaining heifers keeps the herd closed (except for a new bull) and that helps to safeguard the health of the herd.

Very well stated. +1
 

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