It is better to buy hay?

[Caustic Burno]

How does this work? When people say a cow needs X amount of protien X amount of filler... If you have owned any kind of animal you know some are easy keepers and some aren't. How do those numbers play in to that?

As an example I have a dog that need 1/2 a scoop in the off season... 3/4 when she is hunting hard. The stays in excellent condition. I have other dogs of the same breed that reuire as much as 1-1.5 scoops to maintain the same condition.

How do things like that play in to the stats of what cattle need.

Brute I have already answered this it take's 30 pound's of forage for a dry cow the protien and fat content decide if she keep's condition. You can fill her up with straw doesn't mean she will hold condition.
Wet cow's vary greatly on keeping conditon the hard keeper can require up to 20% more of the same good quality forage to keep condition. She is a cull. You are looking for the cow that can maintain condition on the least amount of forage and put pound's on the calf.
Same as if you have a cow that wean's a calf 10% or more below the herd average is a cull. She might be rolling fat and is not working to raise the calf.
You have to look at the whole picture and constantly evaluate the herd.

 

[TexasBred]

Reading this thread makes one wonder why some are in the cattle and hay business. If you're not doing it because you love doing it, just go punch a clock and make that mans money for him. If you're doing something you love doing and you pay your bills, what better life is there. Weather you buy your hay or make your own. I make my own, sell my own and custom bale. I don't see where buying hay is cheaper. It dose not take $75k tractores and $30k balers to make it all work. To each his own, and augering back and forth won't change a thing.

BUT it does take the combination of "my own, sell, and custom bale". Can you make it pay if you simply bale what you need and park the equipment?? That is the question.

 

[TexasBred]

Neglected. Some people spray but I haven't met anyone who manages grazing. I know a guy who spent 6K on feed last year.....
....he has 22 cows!!

I asked you not to tell anyone about that. :lol2: :lol2:

 

[Brute 23]

How does this work? When people say a cow needs X amount of protien X amount of filler... If you have owned any kind of animal you know some are easy keepers and some aren't. How do those numbers play in to that?

As an example I have a dog that need 1/2 a scoop in the off season... 3/4 when she is hunting hard. The stays in excellent condition. I have other dogs of the same breed that reuire as much as 1-1.5 scoops to maintain the same condition.

How do things like that play in to the stats of what cattle need.

Brute I have already answered this it take's 30 pound's of forage for a dry cow the protien and fat content decide if she keep's condition. You can fill her up with straw doesn't mean she will hold condition.
Wet cow's vary greatly on keeping conditon the hard keeper can require up to 20% more of the same good quality forage to keep condition. She is a cull. You are looking for the cow that can maintain condition on the least amount of forage and put pound's on the calf.
Same as if you have a cow that wean's a calf 10% or more below the herd average is a cull. She might be rolling fat and is not working to raise the calf.
You have to look at the whole picture and constantly evaluate the herd.

I got the big picture and what a person is trying to achieve.

What Im wondering is the details of calculating protein and pounds needed. You say it takes 30 pounds of forage for a dry cow. If you have #30 10% forage to mainain a cow wouldn't you need less pounds of 30% forage?

You also say a dry cow needs 30lbs of forage... then the cow that can maintain condition on the least amount of forage... is that least amount of pounds or least amount of protein?

Is there a formula to calculate the ratio of pounds to the amount of protein you need? It would seem like its an inversly sliding scale.

Im not questioning your statements. I've never had formal training or any thing on this stuff and how to actually calculate it.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Forgot to add Brute not all protein is created equal.
What is in your tub if it is urea it build's a fire in their belly making them hustle forage even more digestability comes into the equation as well. If you don't have it the will walk off more condition or consume more hay.
CSM is the best source of protein and fat for the dollar almost 100% digestable as well.
It is 24% protein don't remeber the fat content off the top of my head.
You can't go crazy with CSM as it can cause issue's as well.
Brute I am not smart enough I guess to explain this well, TB would be a better resource than me and maybe will chime in.
It is a system that has to be in balance. protein, fat and digestability.
Next is the efficiency of the cow on your feed.
Brute it doesn't matter on the 30 pound's that is what it takes to fill up the cow.
The quality of the thirty pound's decide's condition.

 

[HOSS]

I am small-potatoes compared to most of you. I feed between 120 and 140 4x6 bales per year. I buy mine from a neighbor who bales better than average quality, fertilized hay for 30.00 per bale most years. It has went as high as 40.00 per bale. He bales enough for himself and then sells the extra to me and a couple of other long term customers. I can't justify buying the equipment and trying to find / lease the hay ground. I don't have enough land to graze AND cut hay on so I graze it. Once in awhile I will have great growth on one pasture that I will hire my neighbor to cut for me. He charges 10.00 per acre and 12.00 per bale which is actually a good price for custom baling. He has a good JD baler that rolls a real tight bale and we have a good relationship. It works for me.

 

[Banjo]

Forgot to add Brute not all protein is created equal.
What is in your tub if it is urea it build's a fire in their belly making them hustle forage even more digestability comes into the equation as well. If you don't have it the will walk off more condition or consume more hay.
CSM is the best source of protein and fat for the dollar almost 100% digestable as well.
It is 24% protein don't remeber the fat content off the top of my head.
You can't go crazy with CSM as it can cause issue's as well.
Brute I am not smart enough I guess to explain this well, TB would be a better resource than me and maybe will chime in.
It is a system that has to be in balance. protein, fat and digestability.
Next is the efficiency of the cow on your feed.
Brute it doesn't matter on the 30 pound's that is what it takes to fill up the cow.
The quality of the thirty pound's decide's condition.

I fed some protein tubs about 3 years ago one summer thru winter started out with the regular 12 % tubs then moved up to the 27% tubs with urea(more bang for the buck) then I started noticing a few of my calves started looking gaint or drawn up in the back part of their stomach. I kept a couple of heifers out of that bunch that still don't look right even now. I quickly got rid of the tubs, don't know if anyone else ever noticed something like that or not.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Forgot to add Brute not all protein is created equal.
What is in your tub if it is urea it build's a fire in their belly making them hustle forage even more digestability comes into the equation as well. If you don't have it the will walk off more condition or consume more hay.
CSM is the best source of protein and fat for the dollar almost 100% digestable as well.
It is 24% protein don't remeber the fat content off the top of my head.
You can't go crazy with CSM as it can cause issue's as well.
Brute I am not smart enough I guess to explain this well, TB would be a better resource than me and maybe will chime in.
It is a system that has to be in balance. protein, fat and digestability.
Next is the efficiency of the cow on your feed.
Brute it doesn't matter on the 30 pound's that is what it takes to fill up the cow.
The quality of the thirty pound's decide's condition.

I fed some protein tubs about 3 years ago one summer thru winter started out with the regular 12 % tubs then moved up to the 27% tubs with urea(more bang for the buck) then I started noticing a few of my calves started looking gaint or drawn up in the back part of their stomach. I kept a couple of heifers out of that bunch that still don't look right even now. I quickly got rid of the tubs, don't know if anyone else ever noticed something like that or not.

The only thing I could think of is a side effect of nitrate poisoning, it can cause all kind's of problems in cattle.
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/toxicol ... qt=nitrate

 

[TexasBred]

How does this work? When people say a cow needs X amount of protien X amount of filler... If you have owned any kind of animal you know some are easy keepers and some aren't. How do those numbers play in to that?

As an example I have a dog that need 1/2 a scoop in the off season... 3/4 when she is hunting hard. The stays in excellent condition. I have other dogs of the same breed that reuire as much as 1-1.5 scoops to maintain the same condition.

How do things like that play in to the stats of what cattle need.

Brute, just like your dogs, cows needs will vary too. All we can do is work within a range of numbers. It's not an exact science no matter what the professors tell you. We can calculate things out to 4 decimal points but in reality we feed by the bag, the bale or what's available. There is no perfect way of doing most things...we just try to fit our operation in the range. If your cattle look fleshy enough for you, they raise good calves, they breed back on time and illnesses are seldom seen I'd say you're doing it right. it indicates they are getting all the nutrients they need. A lot of us tend to overfeed and probably just about as many try to starve a profit out of everything on the place. Again, somewhere in between is where most of us should be.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I am small-potatoes compared to most of you. I feed between 120 and 140 4x6 bales per year. I buy mine from a neighbor who bales better than average quality, fertilized hay for 30.00 per bale most years. It has went as high as 40.00 per bale. He bales enough for himself and then sells the extra to me and a couple of other long term customers. I can't justify buying the equipment and trying to find / lease the hay ground. I don't have enough land to graze AND cut hay on so I graze it. Once in awhile I will have great growth on one pasture that I will hire my neighbor to cut for me. He charges 10.00 per acre and 12.00 per bale which is actually a good price for custom baling. He has a good JD baler that rolls a real tight bale and we have a good relationship. It works for me.

Hoss as small potatoes' as I am one also we have to be more efficient to make them pay there way and make a profit.
There is no majic bullet or one size fit's all. But all need to keep the pencil sharp.

 

[HOSS]

I hear you CB. I feed roughly 4 bales of 4x6 hay to each cow over the winter which calculates to 120.00 per head. They do not get any grain just hay and minerals. I have posted a ton of pics on here of my cows and you can definetly tell they are not starving.....probably a bit too fat. I learned early on that it was cheaper to select replacements from my easiest keepers whenever I could in conjunction with trying to select good genetics in my A.I. program. I can't afford to feed them grain in my market area it just does not pencil out. The agressive culling and genetic selection was just plain cheaper.

 

[shaz]

These posts got me thinking.
I noticed that I'm culling based on body score more than the calf they raised. I think that my grazing program is the most important thing I do and I guess I get rid of cows that don't fall into that program.
Never thought about it till now.

 

[Caustic Burno]

These posts got me thinking.
I noticed that I'm culling based on body score more than the calf they raised. I think that my grazing program is the most important thing I do and I guess I get rid of cows that don't fall into that program.
Never thought about it till now.

I look at my resident girl's as a group BCS of the cow Weaning weight of the calf.
Forage is equal here as I am a grass farmer first. They have to perform on my grass hay and mineral's.
That said you have to have a good balanced feeding program, protein,fat, fiber and digestabilty to fairly evaluate your worker's..
If they can't I am not changing the feeding program for a cow, I am getting a better cow.
Let me see if I can explain it where it makes sense.
I am looking for the cow that maintain's a 6-7 BCS and wean's with the average of here group on the same forage.
If a cow slip's into the 4-5 range she might be raising a great calf but she is going to cost more to get back in condition and most likely have a shorter productive life.
If the cow start's moving to 8 she is not working for the calf and we are moving toward's rebreeding problem's.

 

[Kingfisher]

Wow! We went from buying hay to BCS scoring in one swoop.....I'm just happy I cut my hay cost by 20% and I'm hoping the " range meal" helps! I've learned a bunch from this post. CB I suppose you don't put much /any in that feed bunk when the grass is green or is that why them cows "shine" like they do.....?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Wow! We went from buying hay to BCS scoring in one swoop.....I'm just happy I cut my hay cost by 20% and I'm hoping the " range meal" helps! I've learned a bunch from this post. CB I suppose you don't put much /any in that feed bunk when the grass is green or is that why them cows "shine" like they do.....?

The only thing in it is mineral's.

 

[Kingfisher]

That was a good buy for $350. I'm going to put a roof over mine tomorrow and hope this "range meal" puts a smile on their black booty....

 

[Caustic Burno]

That was a good buy for $350. I'm going to put a roof over mine tomorrow and hope this "range meal" puts a smile on their black booty....

I didn't buy that bunk feeder I built it. During the drought they went to selling them here for a thousand and up.
I told them they were nut's, I could build one a lot cheaper. I had an old covered one that would hold ten sack's maybe.
Told myself during the drought I was going to have feed through it to stay alive and the current one wasn't going to cut it.
Summer feeding through a drought is tricky to as you really have to watch your protein as it increase's body temp.
They will back off to high protein feed because you are burning them up.
King any feeding program winter, drought come's down do you know shyt.
You can evaluate herd health and feed efficiency through manure and adjust to maintain herd health.
You should know the three C's Color, Consistancy,and Content.
Most any forage worksop put on by TAMU will have a discussion about managent of the cow and evaluation of your feeding program using the 3 C's. If not, ask and they will explain and usuall have a brochure with pictures to help evaluIeate. Your local county agent should be able to supply you one.

You ask what was in that bunk feeder earlier, only mineral's and I forgot about the red wasp.
I need to visit them today saw them going and coming yesterday. That is one drawback i have found to the slideing top.

 

[Stocker Steve]

If they can't I am not changing the feeding program for a cow, I am getting a better cow.
Let me see if I can explain it where it makes sense.
I am looking for the cow that maintain's a 6-7 BCS and wean's with the average of here group on the same forage.
If a cow slip's into the 4-5 range she might be raising a great calf but she is going to cost more to get back in condition and most likely have a shorter productive life.
If the cow start's moving to 8 she is not working for the calf and we are moving toward's rebreeding problem's.

I have several cows that do not maintain condition on grass hay. They are 4 to 6 years old. Most of them calve early in the season, and they all raise big calves. I don't like the way they look - - but financially why would I cull them? Is your point that you sell them bred?

 

[Caustic Burno]

If they can't I am not changing the feeding program for a cow, I am getting a better cow.
Let me see if I can explain it where it makes sense.
I am looking for the cow that maintain's a 6-7 BCS and wean's with the average of here group on the same forage.
If a cow slip's into the 4-5 range she might be raising a great calf but she is going to cost more to get back in condition and most likely have a shorter productive life.
If the cow start's moving to 8 she is not working for the calf and we are moving toward's rebreeding problem's.

I have several cows that do not maintain condition on grass hay. They are 4 to 6 years old. Most of them calve early in the season, and they all raise big calves. I don't like the way they look - - but financially why would I cull them? Is your point that you sell them bred?

Yes cause that cow is costing me more money.
She take's longer to recondition and is going to have a shorter productive life.
They are the hard keeper's and require more hay, feed as a wet cow to perform there job.
That cow is having to work harder with your forage system to do the same job as her peer group.
She will be the one consuming more pound's of hay even if you have weaned the calf to get back in condition, as she age's this will take a little longer each year.

 

[Caustic Burno]

:deadhorse: