It is better to buy hay?

[Kingfisher]

I guess I don't like the insecurity of not having control over the winter food supply. I'd rather we bale our own and know that we have winter covered, than to be held hostage to whatever hay prices happen to be this year, and hunt around for hay. If we had not baled our own hay in 2011, we'd have had to sell them all. We started baling the first time I had to pay $30 for 2 year old hay and they ate it in about 5 days. Now we bale our own, and bale for other people to offset the cost of the equipment.

What do you do when it doesn't rain? How do you store your hay? Thanks

 

[Brute 23]

I've said before how much I hate hay. Its a costly, costly deal. Im kind of crazy about it like Caustic is about raising replacement heifers. If hay climb too much Ill by feed. If you keep your stocking rate low, use the hay fields as part of your rotation... I can get by with very few bales, some liquid feed, and cubes or ground feed.

When you add up the time, acreage, risk, trucks, tractors, trailers, barnes, ect that go with hay... its not as great as it seems. I understand that doesn't work in all climates.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I've said before how much I hate hay. Its a costly, costly deal. Im kind of crazy about it like Caustic is about raising replacement heifers. If hay climb too much Ill by feed. If you keep your stocking rate low, use the hay fields as part of your rotation... I can get by with very few bales, some liquid feed, and cubes or ground feed.

When you add up the time, acreage, risk, trucks, tractors, trailers, barnes, ect that go with hay... its not as great as it seems. I understand that doesn't work in all climates.

I totally agree. The only way I see for it to work out is your a big boy and I am not or a custom bailer.
Bailed hay for year's it was no where close to being cheap bailing my own. This is another one of those case's need to get that red crayon and Big Cheif tablet and do some goesinto's.

 

[TexasBred]

Because we have a large clientele from baling, we have ample opportunities to cut and bale for free hay. That year we had already put up 115 rolls from free bale jobs. Ended up with around 35 more after that. We were all set before July. My cows had more than enough. We already have plenty again this year, but from our own meadows. And will have quite a bit to sell.

Nothing is free. You have cost in everything even if it's nothing more than the expense of getting it home and unloading and feeding it. Time is money...mine is anyway.

 

[Aaron]

Dad always said to me as a kid, "People who buy hay have more money than brains, you'll never get it back out of cows."

My philosophy is, if you can buy hay cheaper than you can make it, buy it. But never pay full value for it, because if you do, you would be better off putting that money either into improving your own land, or buying more land.

 

[1982vett]

Because we have a large clientele from baling, we have ample opportunities to cut and bale for free hay. That year we had already put up 115 rolls from free bale jobs. Ended up with around 35 more after that. We were all set before July. My cows had more than enough. We already have plenty again this year, but from our own meadows. And will have quite a bit to sell.

Nothing is free. You have cost in everything even if it's nothing more than the expense of getting it home and unloading and feeding it. Time is money...mine is anyway.

Awh heck....I don't know what costs me more. The money squandered using that "free" time or the time spent trying to do something productive on the farm.... :lol:

Back in the day, Dad made some pretty good money baling and selling his excess hay....more than he could have by adding a few more cows, but that was back in the day. Folks look at me kind of funny when they ask me if I've baled any this year and I tell them it hasn't been in my plan since last spring to bale any.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Dad always said to me as a kid, "People who buy hay have more money than brains, you'll never get it back out of cows."

My philosophy is, if you can buy hay cheaper than you can make it, buy it. But never pay full value for it, because if you do, you would be better off putting that money either into improving your own land, or buying more land.

Lot of regional difference here when you can winter a cow on three good bales along with stockpiled pasture.
At 50 dollar's a bale for great hay it is hard to justify the cost of the equipment.
My 492 dollar's a year has Belle's hay include and she is charged four bale's if she eat's it or not.
That is why there is a surplus of hay here. I could buy unfertilized hay for 25 to 30 dollar's a roll then I am going to have to make up the protien at 1800 dollar's a ton using tub's. Cheaper to buy good hay and let the feed store figure out who they can rip off with protien tub's.

 

[thommoos]

When I had the Equip and land i chose to Make it. It was fertized, limed , and was good hay, We bought any we fell short on from the guy next door, not fertilized, or limed, we could tell a difference.

When figuring the cost some guys try and figure tractor, rake, cutter, etc., I do not figure those cost because in the true grand scheme of things uncle sam lets you deduct depreciation for that equipment. So real input are only gas, labor , fertilizer. my time is free. I do not get paid by the hour. I worked a deal with a guy one ttime he raked with his tractor and help move into a barn for 15 % of the cutting.

 

[Caustic Burno]

When I had the Equip and land i chose to Make it. It was fertized, limed , and was good hay, We bought any we fell short on from the guy next door, not fertilized, or limed, we could tell a difference.

When figuring the cost some guys try and figure tractor, rake, cutter, etc., I do not figure those cost because in the true grand scheme of things uncle sam lets you deduct depreciation for that equipment. So real input are only gas, labor , fertilizer. my time is free. I do not get paid by the hour. I worked a deal with a guy one ttime he raked with his tractor and help move into a barn for 15 % of the cutting.

I hate to tell you buy a 20,000 dollar hay baler you save maybe 3000 dollar's in taxes if you take the deduction in one year. Buying to depreciate is a game you can't win you were still out 17 grand.
Great deal if you need a new piece of equipment a true loser on your bank account if you think you are winning against the IRS . That 30,000 dollar's is deducted from your gross income that you pay taxes on if you depreciate it over five year's you reduced your gross income by 4000 dollar's a year. You saved pennies.

 

[heath]

Lot of regional difference here when you can winter a cow on three good bales along with stockpiled pasture.
At 50 dollar's a bale for great hay it is hard to justify the cost of the equipment.
My 492 dollar's a year has Belle's hay include and she is charged four bale's if she eat's it or not.
That is why there is a surplus of hay here. I could buy unfertilized hay for 25 to 30 dollar's a roll then I am going to have to make up the protien at 1800 dollar's a ton using tub's. Cheaper to buy good hay and let the feed store figure out who they can rip off with protien tub's.[/quote]


I can't get the numbers to jive on buying the more expensive hay. based on 25 cows if you buy $50 hay and put out a bale of hay a day for two weeks that is $700. if you buy the $25 hay and put out a bale of hay a day for two weeks that is three hundred and fifty dollars. buy a tub of feed in a drum that will last almost 3 weeks but we will call it two weeks for $100. your total comes to four hundred and fifty dollars for 2 weeks on the cheaper hay and tub.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Lot of regional difference here when you can winter a cow on three good bales along with stockpiled pasture.
At 50 dollar's a bale for great hay it is hard to justify the cost of the equipment.
My 492 dollar's a year has Belle's hay include and she is charged four bale's if she eat's it or not.
That is why there is a surplus of hay here. I could buy unfertilized hay for 25 to 30 dollar's a roll then I am going to have to make up the protien at 1800 dollar's a ton using tub's. Cheaper to buy good hay and let the feed store figure out who they can rip off with protien tub's.

I can't get the numbers to jive on buying the more expensive hay. based on 25 cows if you buy $50 hay and put out a bale of hay a day for two weeks that is $700. if you buy the $25 hay and put out a bale of hay a day for two weeks that is three hundred and fifty dollars. buy a tub of feed in a drum that will last almost 3 weeks but we will call it two weeks for $100. your total comes to four hundred and fifty dollars for 2 weeks on the cheaper hay and tub.[/quote]


I will agree on sorry hay if you got CLS, but 200 lb tub's at 90 buck's I aint paying anyone that much a ton for feed if it get's them to eat dirt and gain weight.

 

[Brute 23]

Lot of regional difference here when you can winter a cow on three good bales along with stockpiled pasture.
At 50 dollar's a bale for great hay it is hard to justify the cost of the equipment.
My 492 dollar's a year has Belle's hay include and she is charged four bale's if she eat's it or not.
That is why there is a surplus of hay here. I could buy unfertilized hay for 25 to 30 dollar's a roll then I am going to have to make up the protien at 1800 dollar's a ton using tub's. Cheaper to buy good hay and let the feed store figure out who they can rip off with protien tub's.

I can't get the numbers to jive on buying the more expensive hay. based on 25 cows if you buy $50 hay and put out a bale of hay a day for two weeks that is $700. if you buy the $25 hay and put out a bale of hay a day for two weeks that is three hundred and fifty dollars. buy a tub of feed in a drum that will last almost 3 weeks but we will call it two weeks for $100. your total comes to four hundred and fifty dollars for 2 weeks on the cheaper hay and tub.[/quote]

If you can cut hay or buy small amounts close than yes. Its easy to feed hay. When you have to trailer 6, 8, 10 bales per property... to multiple properties... with a $50K diesel truck, $5-10K trailer, load it with a $50K tractor, run $4 diesel in all of it, AND pay to maintain it all it gets expensive.

I can load a lot of tubs on a junky old $1K low boy behind a beat up $3K Z-71 truck and cover lots of country. They will slide a ton of 20% cubes on that trailer also and it rides just as easy. A $400 hay buggy moves one bale great and for $2-3K a good two or three bale dolly is fine behing the old Z. I don't have the numbers handy but my hay consuption was cut almost in half by just keeping tubs out. Im averaging a little over 1 bale per head per year. In the worst of drought it was like 1.6 and I have had years with decent rain where it was less than 1.

It won't work for every one but its an option to keep in mind. It goes back to... every operation is different... its not a one size fits all deal.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Brute it doesn't matter where you operate it takes thirty pound's of forage to fill up a cow per day.
You have to have stockpiled grass, hay, browse, straw or something to fill up the cow. No matter how much hay you or I fed you had to have that forage available for the cattle not to loose condition . You can put a tub out or feed three pound's a day and that cow will walk herself to death searching for forage cause she is hungry.
You can satisfy a cow's nutrition needs on 3 pound's of feed a day you still need 27 pound's to fill her up. More if she is a wet cow. You can feed range meal for 300 a ton or tub's for 1800 a ton to get the protein. Liquid feed like Cattlelac is 400 dollar's a ton for 30 % protein. It boil's down to what you are paying a ton for protien. You can do the same thing with 300 dollar a ton range meal using salt as a limiter as you can with a tub.
You take 12% range meal I am getting 240 pound's of protien per ton you are getting 600 pound's per ton out of a tub.
For the same money I can buy 6 ton's of range meal getting 1440 pound's of protien.

You are buying convenience.

 

[LauraleesFarm]

I guess I don't like the insecurity of not having control over the winter food supply. I'd rather we bale our own and know that we have winter covered, than to be held hostage to whatever hay prices happen to be this year, and hunt around for hay. If we had not baled our own hay in 2011, we'd have had to sell them all. We started baling the first time I had to pay $30 for 2 year old hay and they ate it in about 5 days. Now we bale our own, and bale for other people to offset the cost of the equipment.

What do you do when it doesn't rain? How do you store your hay? Thanks

In East TX we will get at least 2 cuttings no matter what. First cutting will be pretty good. In the worst drought year ever, *2011, we got 2 cuttings and a scrawny third. Covered a lot of acreage to get less hay after July that year, but we did have plenty. MOST of what we got was cut and baled before JUly. It was after that point that most started dispersing herds due to the drought. One guy has 125 acres and no cows. He just wants it mowed. It makes a lot of hay. Decent enough for cows. We sell some and we keep some. This year we already have more hay than we will feed. And will get at least one more cutting, probably 2. That is from OUR fields.

 

[Brute 23]

Brute it doesn't matter where you operate it takes thirty pound's of forage to fill up a cow per day.
You have to have stockpiled grass, hay, browse, straw or something to fill up the cow. No matter how much hay you or I fed you had to have that forage available for the cattle not to loose condition . You can put a tub out or feed three pound's a day and that cow will walk herself to death searching for forage cause she is hungry.
You can satisfy a cow's nutrition needs on 3 pound's of feed a day you still need 27 pound's to fill her up. More if she is a wet cow. You can feed range meal for 300 a ton or tub's for 1800 a ton to get the protein. Liquid feed like Cattlelac is 400 dollar's a ton for 30 % protein. It boil's down to what you are paying a ton for protien. You can do the same thing with 300 dollar a ton range meal using salt as a limiter as you can with a tub.
You take 12% range meal I am getting 240 pound's of protien per ton you are getting 600 pound's per ton out of a tub.
For the same money I can buy 6 ton's of range meal getting 1440 pound's of protien.

You are buying convenience.

Id rather stock pile grass and substitute protein out of a tub rather than a bale. If a person is being honest about their true cost to operate... calculate the cost of moving a hay bale vs throwing a tub off the back of a truck. Its more than a convenience.

Producing Hay
1 Fence the hay field
2 Disk, renovate, and or aerate
3 Fert and spray for weeds
4 Cut hay (if it makes)
5 Stack hay (maybe put in a barn or trap with a $25K tractor)
6 load hay back on to $10K trailer behind $30K truck
7 haul to cows and put in $300 hay rings
& TIME, FUEL, MAINTENANCE, HEADACHE
If it doesn't make your buying over priced sorry hay any ways

Protein Tubs
1 Roll out of bed, put crocs on, get in $3K truck and go to feed store
2 Drive from place to place and roll out a couple tubs
3 Go back to bed
Repeat in 2-3wks

Hay gives an appearance of being cheaper because it usually doesn't have time factored in. I can calculate the cost of the tub and my time for 3-4 hours to feed them and have a REAL cost to feed those cattle.

Thats the thing about working for people. I keep track of my time with the cattle so I make sure Im getting paid what I need to be. A lot of people in their own operation buy a cheaper product that is way more time consuming because they don't keep up with time. Same thing with contractors, I can tell you what it really costs to do some thing. Not this I can build it cheaper... because my time is free.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

UP here in snow country there is no other option than to feed hay/silage/haylage/etc for 6 months of the year. Stockpile forages aren't worth a squat, so bales of hay it is. I've put the calculator to the numbers quite a bit and if I had to buy that quantity of hay every year I would be better off getting rid of the animals and doing something else with the land. Sure I have a lot of time invested in making hay but that is all part of running a farm.

 

[TexasBred]

Id rather stock pile grass and substitute protein out of a tub rather than a bale. If a person is being honest about their true cost to operate... calculate the cost of moving a hay bale vs throwing a tub off the back of a truck. Its more than a convenience.

Producing Hay
1 Fence the hay field
2 Disk, renovate, and or aerate
3 Fert and spray for weeds
4 Cut hay (if it makes)
5 Stack hay (maybe put in a barn or trap with a $25K tractor)
6 load hay back on to $10K trailer behind $30K truck
7 haul to cows and put in $300 hay rings
& TIME, FUEL, MAINTENANCE, HEADACHE
If it doesn't make your buying over priced sorry hay any ways

Protein Tubs
1 Roll out of bed, put crocs on, get in $3K truck and go to feed store
2 Drive from place to place and roll out a couple tubs
3 Go back to bed
Repeat in 2-3wks

Hay gives an appearance of being cheaper because it usually doesn't have time factored in. I can calculate the cost of the tub and my time for 3-4 hours to feed them and have a REAL cost to feed those cattle.

Thats the thing about working for people. I keep track of my time with the cattle so I make sure Im getting paid what I need to be. A lot of people in their own operation buy a cheaper product that is way more time consuming because they don't keep up with time. Same thing with contractors, I can tell you what it really costs to do some thing. Not this I can build it cheaper... because my time is free.

In your climate you may be able to stockpile a little grass..not a lot. Have you tried liquid feed as apposed to the tubs?? Cost about 25% as much, the dealer fills them up for you and you can stay in bed.

Cattle need more than protein. During the winter season energy is just as critical if not more so even tho we in Texas have milder winteres than the folks up north. They need to be able to generate heat and most are nursing calves at the same time so we need something to make milk as well. As CB said they will walk off more calories than they can ever take in just trying to get a "full feeling"....A few pounds of supplement and a bit of worthless grass (the kind we have in Texas) won't do it. Get the best hay you can get your hands on and feed it. It will give bossy what she needs for maintenance, production and reproduction. And she'll put some nutrients back into your soil. Now I'm sure we have some miracle workers that can and will counter every bit of this.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Brute it doesn't matter where you operate it takes thirty pound's of forage to fill up a cow per day.
You have to have stockpiled grass, hay, browse, straw or something to fill up the cow. No matter how much hay you or I fed you had to have that forage available for the cattle not to loose condition . You can put a tub out or feed three pound's a day and that cow will walk herself to death searching for forage cause she is hungry.
You can satisfy a cow's nutrition needs on 3 pound's of feed a day you still need 27 pound's to fill her up. More if she is a wet cow. You can feed range meal for 300 a ton or tub's for 1800 a ton to get the protein. Liquid feed like Cattlelac is 400 dollar's a ton for 30 % protein. It boil's down to what you are paying a ton for protien. You can do the same thing with 300 dollar a ton range meal using salt as a limiter as you can with a tub.
You take 12% range meal I am getting 240 pound's of protien per ton you are getting 600 pound's per ton out of a tub.
For the same money I can buy 6 ton's of range meal getting 1440 pound's of protien.

You are buying convenience.

Id rather stock pile grass and substitute protein out of a tub rather than a bale. If a person is being honest about their true cost to operate... calculate the cost of moving a hay bale vs throwing a tub off the back of a truck. Its more than a convenience.

Producing Hay
1 Fence the hay field
2 Disk, renovate, and or aerate
3 Fert and spray for weeds
4 Cut hay (if it makes)
5 Stack hay (maybe put in a barn or trap with a $25K tractor)
6 load hay back on to $10K trailer behind $30K truck
7 haul to cows and put in $300 hay rings
& TIME, FUEL, MAINTENANCE, HEADACHE
If it doesn't make your buying over priced sorry hay any ways

Protein Tubs
1 Roll out of bed, put crocs on, get in $3K truck and go to feed store
2 Drive from place to place and roll out a couple tubs
3 Go back to bed
Repeat in 2-3wks

Hay gives an appearance of being cheaper because it usually doesn't have time factored in. I can calculate the cost of the tub and my time for 3-4 hours to feed them and have a REAL cost to feed those cattle.

Thats the thing about working for people. I keep track of my time with the cattle so I make sure Im getting paid what I need to be. A lot of people in their own operation buy a cheaper product that is way more time consuming because they don't keep up with time. Same thing with contractors, I can tell you what it really costs to do some thing. Not this I can build it cheaper... because my time is free.

I didn't say you bale it. You are not staying with me if you are going to buy protien get the most bang for your buck.
Hay is still the cheapest pound of protien.
That come to a 100 dollar's a ton for 240 pound's of protien that is 4340 pound's of protien as well as 18 ton's of filler.
Liquid feed is the second best option and I used to use it we don't have a distributor here so I didn't include it.
Spending 1800 dollar's on protien. Basesd off prices here.
Hay 12 % 1000 pound roll 50 dollar's= 100 dollar's a ton
Range meal 300 dollar's a ton.
Tub 200 pound 30% protien 90 dollar's = 1800 dollars a ton.
Hay 12 % = 18 ton's 4340 pound's of protien =.46 cent's a pound. One ton of protien cost = 920 dollar's
Range meal 12% = 6 ton's = 1440 pound's of protien = 1.38 a pound. One ton of protien cost = 2760 dollar's.
Tub 30% 1 ton = 600 pound's of protien =3.33 a pound. One ton of protien cost = 6,660 dollar's.

We just look at a dollar different I guess if you need to purchase one ton of protien to supplement a cow hay is 5740 dollar's cheaper.
Brute that might be the easiest for you , someone that has cattle scattered over several counties.
The tub is the absolute worse use of a dollar of anyone living on the operation to purchase protien.
The tub cost you 7 time's more per pound.

 

[Brute 23]

In your climate you may be able to stockpile a little grass..not a lot. Have you tried liquid feed as apposed to the tubs?? Cost about 25% as much, the dealer fills them up for you and you can stay in bed.

Cattle need more than protein. During the winter season energy is just as critical if not more so even tho we in Texas have milder winteres than the folks up north. They need to be able to generate heat and most are nursing calves at the same time so we need something to make milk as well. As CB said they will walk off more calories than they can ever take in just trying to get a "full feeling"....A few pounds of supplement and a bit of worthless grass (the kind we have in Texas) won't do it. Get the best hay you can get your hands on and feed it. It will give bossy what she needs for maintenance, production and reproduction. And she'll put some nutrients back into your soil. Now I'm sure we have some miracle workers that can and will counter every bit of this.

My problem with the liquid feed is they all advertise limiter this... limiter that but every one I know who feeds it ... its always more. Plus you have to have to keep those things in every pasture. When you move cattle your either leaving it behind or pumping it out. Then you get rain and there is $2K worth of liquid feed that is not needed just sitting there.

We actually get a lot of winter grass on native pasture. The bottoms and brush will keep a lot green. That's why I wouldn't totally clean off a place.

I am not saying only tubs will work. If I can cut my trips and the amount of hay I feed in 1/2... which I did... its worth it. I have some ground feed mixes that are more energy based... I think... than protein also that I will throw in the mix.

Plus, I refuse to take calves thru winter. Ill sell a little light to make sure if I have straglers. That makes a lot of difference on the feed bill. Taking a bunch of 4-5wt calves thru winter is brutal.

 

[Brute 23]

I didn't say you bale it. You are not staying with me if you are going to buy protien get the most bang for your buck.
Hay is still the cheapest pound of protien.
That come to a 100 dollar's a ton for 240 pound's of protien that is 4340 pound's of protien as well as 18 ton's of filler.
Liquid feed is the second best option and I used to use it we don't have a distributor here so I didn't include it.
Spending 1800 dollar's on protien. Basesd off prices here.
Hay 12 % 1000 pound roll 50 dollar's= 100 dollar's a ton
Range meal 300 dollar's a ton.
Tub 200 pound 30% protien 90 dollar's = 1800 dollars a ton.
Hay 12 % = 18 ton's 4340 pound's of protien =.46 cent's a pound. One ton of protien cost = 920 dollar's
Range meal 12% = 6 ton's = 1440 pound's of protien = 1.38 a pound. One ton of protien cost = 2760 dollar's.
Tub 30% 1 ton = 600 pound's of protien =3.33 a pound. One ton of protien cost = 6,660 dollar's.

We just look at a dollar different I guess if you need to purchase one ton of protien to supplement a cow hay is 5740 dollar's cheaper.
Brute that might be the easiest for you , someone that has cattle scattered over several counties.
The tub is the absolute worse use of a dollar of anyone living on the operation to purchase protien.
The tub cost you 7 time's more per pound.

Yall don't write me off yet.. Im trying and appreciate yalls experience. Im not a lost cause... I promise.

Are you saying its cheaper to grow the "hay" in pastures but not bale it... just graze it? That's what Im trying to say... its cheaper to stay under stocked, grow and have pleanty of grass. Then just roll out the protien tubs when the grass has lost its protien. The roughage, filler, what ever is right there on ther ground.

To calculate the true cost of protien you have to factor is the cost from inception to actually getting it to the cows mouth. Just saying a bale costs $50 does't even get you close to the true cost of feeding hay.

I understand its not for every one. We can have as little as 2 mo of winter feeding.