Holden Bull Sale - 8203

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Herefords.US

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I've been watching Holden's bull sale offering for the past several years and I think this is the best bull prospect I've seen!

Tremendous carcass and growth data with a ton of eye appeal.

Here's a link to his video:

http://superiorlivestock.com/videocatalog/lotlist.sla?cid=311&view=8203&sName=HH

The only negative thing I can point out in him is that he's near the top of his group in BW.

It's pretty impressive to see the uniformity and depth of quality in Holden's sale bulls. The sale is coming up on March 9th and will be on Superior and LiveAuctions.tv.

George
 

capt

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I agree wholeheartedly, George. A very exciting bull indeed out of a great cow. The 752 cow has done a lot of good not only for the breed but the beef industry. Can't help but think 8203 will as well.
 

JHH

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George how much frame do you think that bull will have? Looks good other than I might have wanted a different video of him because he slipped twice. JHH
 
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Herefords.US

Herefords.US

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JHH":2a9d78sz said:
George how much frame do you think that bull will have? Looks good other than I might have wanted a different video of him because he slipped twice. JHH

Yeah, I believe there's concrete or ice under that hay! A lot of his bulls slipped last year when they shot videos as well. I downloaded 8203's video from Superior a couple of weeks back and now they've shortened it a lot. The version I downloaded showed the bull much better, especially from a head-on view. He is really impressive!

Add to his eye appeal scans of 14.6 adj. REA(107%) and a 5.4% adj. IMF(161%), plus a scrotal measurement of 41 cm. at a year and he appears to be a real "hoss". I don't know his frame score.

George
 

Northern Rancher

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Not sure if the world needs another big birthweight Hereford bull....In a commercial situation if you want increased performance and redhided cattle why not just crossbreed. I'm slowly converting commercial guys up here to using Horned Hereford bulls on their straight black heifers-the breed has such a bad rep up here for BW that it's a bit of a tough sell luckily there are a few bulls that will still calve easily. I still think Angus and Hereford cattle's strong suit is their maternal performance not getting in a race with the exotics. I'm looking foirward to checking out some U.S herds while my son is in college down there.
 

JHH

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Northern Rancher":2jf0nfpa said:
Not sure if the world needs another big birthweight Hereford bull....In a commercial situation if you want increased performance and redhided cattle why not just crossbreed. I'm slowly converting commercial guys up here to using Horned Hereford bulls on their straight black heifers-the breed has such a bad rep up here for BW that it's a bit of a tough sell luckily there are a few bulls that will still calve easily. I still think Angus and Hereford cattle's strong suit is their maternal performance not getting in a race with the exotics. I'm looking foirward to checking out some U.S herds while my son is in college down there.


I noticed that alot of the bulls had 90 + lb birth weights. But if you have to feed heavy in the winter that number may fall if the bull was put in service in a warmer climate. anything over 100 I think should have been cut or banded. What are your thoughts here?
 

Northern Rancher

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It is what it is-too many Horned Hereford cattle are too big at birth, too framey and too hard to feed as a commercial ranch cow. we finish all our own cattle but really don't worry about carcass epd's. Take care of the factory-your momma cows the rest will follow.
 

Ned Jr.

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A BW EPD of 4.3 is a little on the high side of what I like to use but you shouldn't even look at his actual birth weight. He's an ET calf.

I've used a lot of Holden genetics and never get as much birth weight as they do. My cattle aren't in quite as good of shape and we're a little warmer down here. That definitely does make a difference.

I've used a maternal brother to 8203, HH ADVANCE 286M, with great success on heifers. I truly believe 286 is one of the great bulls of the breed right now. His calves are moderate framed, well pigmented, easy fleshing, very sound and he's an udder fixer to boot. 286 sons and daughters have a ton of muscle also. Very few bulls put it all together like 286 does.

If anyone would like to buy me 8203 I'll make darn sure he sees some cows. ;-)
 

capt

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I think I'll stick with Ned on this one. First, 8203 is out of a recip so can't consider his actual birth weight at all. secondly, this picture is not the best to truly determine if 8203 is a really big framed bull or not, I say not. 286 has done remarkable things very consistently as has the 752 cow. 8203 scanned remarkably well after tremendous performance for what I would call a moderate framed bull.

I too have used Holden genetics and have seen as much as 20 pounds less birth weight with the exact matings between here and northern montana. Environment and management play a big role in determining birth weights. If you calve in winter in an area that has cold fall weather as well, the fact is those cows require more feed to maintain and with easy keeping cows in a grazing scenario you can't always limit their appetite. Therefore it becomes very easy to 'manufacture' some extra birth weight. In my scenario when winter doesn't become a concern, unfortunately like this very dry, very warm winter for me has, cows can get out and cover a lot of area and graze which in my experience does not 'manufacture' extra birth weight. 8203's birth epd is not a concern at all for me. IF he proves to be a sire of big birth weights then we will all know he wasn't right for the breed/industry. We all know what big birth weights have done! That all being said, I anxiously await the first crop of calves out of 8203 from whoever buys him and we will see exactly what he does.
 

KNERSIE

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I'm curious how Holdens rank their bull offering.

Ned Jr, George or anyone else who is in the know, who do Holdens think are their top bulls in this year's consignment?
 
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KNERSIE":1s3zr40o said:
I'm curious how Holdens rank their bull offering.

Ned Jr, George or anyone else who is in the know, who do Holdens think are their top bulls in this year's consignment?

Their sale order is here:

http://holdenherefords.com/pdf/2009 SALE ORDER.pdf

8203 starts the sale.

It's been my experience that they generally line the bulls up according to how they see them. Last year the two top sellers were in the ring #1 and #2, if I remember correctly. My pick, last year, was the second bull in the ring, who ended up the second top seller, but my second choice sold way down in the sale order.

The year before, my first choice,based on videos and carcass data, sold down in the #10 to #15 spot and the top-selling bull wasn't even in my own top 20, but I think he did start the sale.

Ironically, Jim Coley and some fellow breeders have ended up buying both of my top picks in the last two sales.

The uniformity of quality runs so deep in these bulls that it's easy to see where there would be disagreement. No doubt, the pictures and videos don't show everything and aren't foolproof. There is no substitute for being there and looking at the bulls in person. Many times, ultimately, the best breeding bull comes from back in the pack anyway. I tend to focus more on visual appeal and the scans. I know others look more at the EPDs. And there are a number of dedicated Line 1 breeders who have seen virtually every animal in the 3 generation pedigrees of these bulls and know them that well.

I thought the 7026 bull was a pretty easy "top pick" last year, but he ended up as the #2 bull to sell and the #2 top seller. I think 8203 is even an easier "top pick" this year. Compared to the 7026 bull that sold last year, 8203 has more strength of top, depth of body, and he has that "look" of being the easy-keeping kind. His scans and scrotal measurement just add to the package. If he proves out to be around breed average, or even slightly above, in BW, the other things he may excel in more than trump that as far as I'm concerned.

And to bring up his "unimpressive" maternal calving ease EPD, when he hasn't yet even had a calf born, much less daughters going into production, is so ridiculous that it's laughable, as far as I'm concerned. If you follow EPDs and their progression, you know that number can change radically once daughters actually go into production - both ways! If you're "betting" on that number any time beforehand you'd be better off at a roulette wheel.

I'm still searching for that PERFECT bull, but as a prospect 8203 brings as much as any young bull I've seen come along. I realize that I'm not as concerned about BW as others are, but I've not had any problems in that area, so far. As far as the EPDs go, theoretically, 8203 would improve the BW EPDs of 90% of my cow herd. Since I don't believe in the accuracy of EPDs, except in the case of highly proven bulls, I tend to believe real world experience rather than the theoretical numbers. It'll be interesting to see how 8203 ultimately does as a breeding bull. I'm normally not inclined to use unproven bulls by AI, but I'm going to be very tempted to try 8203 if I get a chance.

George
 

capt

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It is better than breed average. Just about right as far as I am concerned on a young unproven bull.
 

jenran

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I was wondering what you guys knew about the 4140P sire of Holdens ??? or if you had a pick of his son's that will be selling this year ??
I am going to try and make the sale Monday....providing I don't get snowed in !

Jen
 

capt

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Jenran, I have seen 4140 a couple of times and have been impressed with him. He is a wide based, long bodied, moderate framed bull that is put together well. He has a great hip and heavy quarter with great eye pigment as well. His sons are built for calving ease despite what his moderate birth EPD says. They are consistent in type and kind being moderate framed heavy muscled bulls. I have not seen his dam but have seen a couple of maternal brothers. I have one 4140 bull calf on the ground here from a cow I bought from holdens. Very acceptable birth weight and about two weeks after birth began to display that great hip and hindquarter. I really liked the 7101 bull in last years sale and his full brother (8227u) sells this year. I like the 8223 bull. Wish I could make it up there this year, but too many commitments here at home. Whoever all watches or goes to the sale, I hope to hear some reports of what people liked. I will not be able to watch on the satellite either. Dang mondays!!
 

jenran

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Thanks Capt....

I really liked the 8223 bull in his video .... thanks to this post I figured out how to see the video's of the bulls online.....am still looking...bit behind on my homework. Sounds like we will get there tomorrow. I haven't been to Holden's in years...the last time I was there 3 of us were trying to make a pick of their sale bulls.....I remember it being really tough to do as the bulls were so uniform.

Thanks for sharing your thought's on the 4140P bull......I am looking for a bull that will add some pigment...and 4140 appears to just what you said "moderate framed with lot's of muscle". Nice to know that his birth weight EPD is not a reflection of his calving ease. I'll let you know my thought's on the sale....I doubt we'll be able to bring a sale bull home.....but you never know. :nod: :D

Jen
 

Frankie

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While watching the sale, it occurs to me: do you think these bulls have had any grain (alfalfa, wheat, oats), etc?

Lot one sold for $50,000.
 

Northern Rancher

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Alfalfa is a forage up here in Canada lol. There's a difference between enough and too much of everything and anything.
 

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