Bull Sale catalog

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I agree with Warren on the birthweight for this reason. Often, most people will have the cows at a low weight when they calve. The calves will be smaller. Then there is my fat herd. My calves are born heavier. So, it all depends on the circumstances. And then the gene pool is floating around and you never know what will be grabbed. That is why I like to look at the registration papers, but, on Angus, (not sure about Black Herefords) they will not share the actual birthweight of the bull unless you own the bull, or can find it on a AI site. Seldom will anyone show you that a bull weighed 100 lbs or over when he was born as you may as well shoot your self in the foot if you pull a lot of semen and pay for it, and then try to sell it. They will show it such as BW 2.6 and such. I have registered animals that were lower weight and higher weights, and did not feel that what the association came up with reflected their weights, but I know they pretty much do an average weight of them all.

Let's say they leave the BW blank or write N/A. I would pass on that bull no matter what he looked like or the rest of him showed.
 
Chuckie said:
I always go through the catalog before a sale and see what I totally rule out. Numbers are fudged, as the conformation of the bull is what sells him as far as I am concerned. But, if he has some real bad numbers, I can walk away. I want his birthweight close to the 75-80 or a little lower marker if I can get it. If his Weaning weights and Yearling weights are so so low, I would pass. Today, it says Angus WW averages for current sires is 63. YW is 110. I want those numbers or higher. Such as Angus, I do mark high the numbers.

Check the registrations at the Associations before the sale to make sure of the actual numbers. And I look for a good Marb and Ribeye although I have yet had them to pay me for that when it goes across the scale. But if you are looking into freezer beef sales, it may make a difference. Then when I have all my animals circled, I walk the bulls and I will see some out there that I did not circle, and I start going back over the catalog. Some will be outstanding, and why did I not mark him?? Some you marked, you would not let it loose on your worst cow. Some have major defects. It is a lot of fun.

I love a bull sale because it is such a ritual to me. So many bulls so close to the same, but you never know how the prices will run and you have to be ready for those that you don't want to pay 10 prices for. So you have to choose alternatives. Then some of the alternatives are sold before the ones you feel will cost an arm and a leg. So, I get a bit nervous when the auction starts.
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If you think the bull's numbers are fudged at the sale you are attending then you are at the wrong sale. Not saying that mistakes don't happen but honesty is a necessity in this business.
 
I am going to try to remember the numbers correctly. I think I still have the sale books, but, I think all three of the heifers were right around the 3.0 BW. That is a good growth BW for cows. In a few months the Association had them listed as, well, one died and I took her off my list, and I wish I had not of done that; but she was close to 6.0 BW, one was 5.9 BW and then one dropped back down eventually to 3.7 as she had gone up into the 4's. So, I can handle a few points of movement, but not from 3 to 5.9. I was surprised just then to see that the other had dropped down to 3.7.
 
I have always raised large framed Angus. My smallest cow is a .8 frame to a 1.2. And I like a 1.0 frame bull. So, with that kind of frame, and purposely buying 100 BW is pushing it a bit. So, I had rather aim more at 80, knowing that I will get lower and higher weights. My cattle have always been fat, and their calves are not small. The larger calves grow off better and when they reach weaning, I can tell a difference. They are just bigger and heavier.
 
I have never had a bull's numbers fudged. You better have it right if you are selling bulls to the public. If I had of bought a bull that had been let's say a 3.0 and he moved to the high 4's or 5's, I would be raising all kind of he77. But was not happy when it was the heifers at all. I need to go back and look for that sale catalog and see exactly how that went as I was bent out of shape at the time.
 
I tried to put those three heifers out of my mind as one was a grand daughter of Leachman Boomtime, who our herd sire was out of, Boomer. And I wanted to take her home and my husband took all three of those heifers to his farm and let them out and would not let me have her back. I stayed upset about that. I tried to stop looking at them on paper as it just turned the heat up higher when I looked at them. Funny how it is making my blood pressure go up once again. Those heifers had some good numbers for so long ago.
 
Chuckie said:
I tried to put those three heifers out of my mind as one was a grand daughter of Leachman Boomtime, who our herd sire was out of, Boomer. And I wanted to take her home and my husband took all three of those heifers to his farm and let them out and would not let me have her back. I stayed upset about that. I tried to stop looking at them on paper as it just turned the heat up higher when I looked at them. Funny how it is making my blood pressure go up once again. Those heifers had some good numbers for so long ago.
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Somethings trigger anxiety or PTSD I try to get my wife to avoid those things! Just saying.
 
Chuckie said:
I am going to try to remember the numbers correctly. I think I still have the sale books, but, I think all three of the heifers were right around the 3.0 BW. That is a good growth BW for cows. In a few months the Association had them listed as, well, one died and I took her off my list, and I wish I had not of done that; but she was close to 6.0 BW, one was 5.9 BW and then one dropped back down eventually to 3.7 as she had gone up into the 4's. So, I can handle a few points of movement, but not from 3 to 5.9. I was surprised just then to see that the other had dropped down to 3.7.
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When the results of genomics come in and are included in the next calculations that can sometimes cause big changes in the EPD's. Most times it just results in a bit of tweaking of the numbers but sometimes they can be dramatic.

Ken
 
I am starting to figure out these EPD's, well kind of. What I am not understanding is when I look at the catalog and then look at the Black Hereford Association website, the numbers are different when I put in the registry number.
 
CowboyRam said:
I am starting to figure out these EPD's, well kind of. What I am not understanding is when I look at the catalog and then look at the Black Hereford Association website, the numbers are different when I put in the registry number.
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Are the numbers close, but not an exact match? Epd's for the black hereford association are handled by IGS - International Genetic Solutions. Several associations have partnered with the American Simmental Association for their epd's and data services. That database has more than 21 million records covering multiple breeds and crossbreeds. The epd's are updated every two weeks if I remember correctly. So they are always being updated as new data and new cattle are added. But those changes are generally small. Catalogs are usually produced with the epd numbers available at the time of starting to put the catalog together and subject to change every 2 weeks.

International Genetic Solutions

An unprecedented collaboration between progressive breed associations to enhance beef industry profitability. IGS is an outgrowth of listening to the commercial industry!
www.internationalgeneticsolutions.com www.internationalgeneticsolutions.com
 
On one bull the catalog WW is 70, and the ABHA it is 54. Was just curious how they came up with different numbers.
 
Chuckie said:
Here is what I see because it looks like after seeing the Hereford numbers they are leaning with Angus sort of numbers and they do not have averages. Why a breed does not have averages so you can compare, I will never know. They do that with the Piedmontese too, and I do not like that.

But his calving ease appears to be pretty good at 10.7 as his BW shows to be a 1.0. There are lower BW, but there are higher as well. He appears to be on the low scale there. The actual birthweight was 86 lbs. That is sort of on the upper side and I would not want it higher if you are breeding heifers, as I see a lot of 86's like they refuse to show his sire's BW going above that. I will check and see if I can look up his registration number for his real BW as if it goes higher than that, he needs to only breed older cows or 2nd calvers. He is Polled from what I can understand, so his calves will be polled as well. His calves will weigh more than the average calf at weaning, if he is in the top 10% . That is good to have a bull that is in the top 10% and higher, the better. YW??TBD?? Not sure there. I will say that his Marbling is in top 4% but it appears that his Ribeye is quite high as they tell it to be in the upper 15%. It says his measurement is a 72 compared to the others. Now I cannot tell you exactly what the measurements entail, but comparing him to the other Black Hereford bulls in this sale it sounds like his EPD's are worthy. Top 1% for his API. I would really like the fact he is polled. But this is a great tool and he passes, but what is his conformation. That is the deal breaker!!!
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Why they dont average is avery farm is different if you guys would raise ur own bulls yull save a lot of money bred back into your own cow family and i dont mean inbreed.
 
You can breed back in your farm, but don't over concentrate it. Mostly if you are seeing a defect showing up in the same lineage, then STOP. Weaknesses show up when it is a strong weakness gene, and when you see it in a few calves, change it quick. It has taken over the hips and rear leg joints in many farms, and people keep breeding these animals. Many have the look, but the bulls are in pain when they walk.

Often I see weaknesses in certain farms and I think they can't see it. Or they hope you don't see it.... Like weak structure in legs and hips. Or weakness in backs and thickness of the animal. If you have trouble deciding what you are looking at. Find a great bull that you know is correct, and compare that animal to what is different in your own. Is your calf half the thickness of one of the same age? Is his heart girth as deep and his flank as deep? Does his muscling on his rump tie down close to his hock or does it end higher up?

Calves are young, but when they are weanlings, they will look the same but just much bigger. If there is a fault or a weakness, it will still be there when he is a 2 year old.

Comparing will teach you to see the difference. You are not just trying to raise a show animal, but correct cattle are stronger and heavier. And it raises your profits at the sale barn and selling replacement heifers to other people.

It raises the quality of your own herd, and all that calves that follow afterwards. You are doing yourself the biggest favor when you retain the very best. That cow or bull will hopefully reproduce themselves, and always get a bull that is better than any cow you have. And they don't always cost you super prices. Many bulls I have seen at sales were great, but the farms did not push them as a top bull because their breeding was not as well known. My best bull cost me $3,000 in 2003 or 2004, and he was a super producer. You never know how strong the genetics will pass through different bulls. Ever notice that the bulls costing so much and are the high selling bulls at the farms often fall often out of sight? The farm will push the first year they use him, but don't offer him after that. But the good ones, they keep pushing for years afterwards. They had the look, and the breeding, but just can't produce themselves. There are some that were so nice that have almost disappeared.
 
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