Bull shopping

[redcowsrule33]

I'm suffering a case of information overload these days. Used to select on phenotype alone, maybe you knew the birthweight and could trust the word of the breeder about calving ease. Now we have genomics, EPDs, and scanning results as well as individual performance. I'm not complaining, I'm an information person.
I'm interested to know how others use all this in their selection process. Do you give some things more weight than others and why?
I have always looked at the data and ranked on paper, then went blind into the bulls and ranked on phenotype, then compared the two. I'm just not sure how much weight to put into an individual scan.

 

[Josher]

I'm like you I feel my brain hurting after looking through all the bulls, and numbers.

I start with phenotype , feet, structure. Then what am I going to use him on? cows, heifers, for making replacements, making feeder cattle. Then I do quick scan of CE ( my opinion but this whole calving ease went way overboard and %80 of the bulls I can use for AI are bred to be heifer bulls.) which I stay away from the calving ease extremes. Growth Epds are next. Then look at MW, MH. Foot Scores. Milk. If they pass all these ideals then I look deeper into the pedigree. Do I want replacements just like the dam. Does the sire have the same good phenotype. At this point I might circle back and look at the epds closer and pick it apart more. Sadly there is no perfect bull I've come to find. He's always got a weakness somewhere. But if his strengths are what you are looking for then that's the bull.

 

[Brute 23]

No help but I feel the same. They claim all that is to help you with selection but I think these associations are like the govt. They want to flood you with so much info you can't keep up and just rely on them to steer you in the "right" direction.

 

[coachg]

The problem I run into is with young bulls it's all a prediction, not set in stone . Till you get calves on the ground it's more based on his dam and sire . I think you still have to look at the animal, look at his feet and hope the seller hasn't run a ton of feed through him .

 

[Peace]

Saturday in ElReno....

4/6/24 Oklahoma Red Angus Association - Reds in the Heartland Sale Video Catalog

Video Catalog for Oklahoma Red Angus Association - Reds in the Heartland Sale

www.dvauction.com

 

[wbvs58]

When selling bulls very few people that I deal with know anything about numbers however I will steer them in the right direction around calving ease as to me it is important for customer satisfaction that they get something suitable here as many don't live with their cows , might run 30 females on a rented block and only check them on weekends and will often have heifers calving. Some people are very astute and can make good use of the numbers but these are the minority in my case. I tend to be a bottom feeder when selling bulls, the quality is there but not the volume to attract the bigger buyers.
When it comes to ultrasound scan data, I don't do it however I have sold at multivendor sales where they get all the bulls scanned before the sale which I think is useless as the bulls from the various vendors have all been on a different feed regime so they can't be compared yet buyers will look down the list and compare.
Ken

 

[Warren Allison]

The problem I run into is with young bulls it's all a prediction, not set in stone . Till you get calves on the ground it's more based on his dam and sire . I think you still have to look at the animal, look at his feet and hope the seller hasn't run a ton of feed through him .

For those who don't have the time to spend going to sales, going to breeders etc, to see bulls, I think the best thing to do is what you did: Go to a reputable breeder that is well known on here...like @gizmom , @simme , @Jeanne - Simme Valley and others on here, and tell them what you are looking for. There are other CT members as reputable and honest, I am sure. Those are just 3 I can think of off-hand, that I would buy one from without having to see it in person. There are 2 Brangus breeders around here, that anyone can get a bull from with confidence. You get one of theirs and if it doesn't work out for any reason, they will come get it and bring you another one. There several "production" bull sales every day, put on by a breeder, sometimes 2, 3 or 4 will come togther for a sale. Might be 100 bulls for sale that day. They will be for the most part, excellent bulls, have pics and videos and information on the sires of those bulls.. and offspring if they have any. and often for not much over sale barn prices. But those breeders like I have mentioned, that sell their bulls direct, private treaty, can not and will not sell an inferior bull.. Like any business, you can have 100's of happy, satisfied customers out there, that won't say a thing about you, But one disgruntled customer will tell everyone they know.

 

[Ky hills]

We are looking currently. Looked at some Angus bulls Monday and today, EPD's were not even a consideration for me. These were bulls that are by current lines and I'm sure the numbers are there. At this point I've gone back to visual appraisal as far as selection, especially feet and legs and sheath.That said, I'm going to be looking at Herefords soon, and possibly Charolais. I'm a little more concerned with numbers just as another tool in selection for other breeds besides Angus.
With Herefords I want at least a guess about milk and growth and with Charolais birthweight CE and milk, in addition to what the bulls frames and structures are.

 

[gcreekrch]

We are looking currently. Looked at some Angus bulls Monday and today, EPD's were not even a consideration for me. These were bulls that are by current lines and I'm sure the numbers are there. At this point I've gone back to visual appraisal as far as selection, especially feet and legs and sheath.That said, I'm going to be looking at Herefords soon, and possibly Charolais. I'm a little more concerned with numbers just as another tool in selection for other breeds besides Angus.
With Herefords I want at least a guess about milk and growth and with Charolais birthweight CE and milk, in addition to what the bulls frames and structures are.

Birthdate, birthweight, 205 day adj weaning weight, gain on whatever feed program they are on as compared to pen mates, yearling weight are the only numbers I am really concerned with.
Then we start with feet, legs and ease of travel. Any of these missing and the rest of the bull is useless. Then depth, thickness and length.
I also prefer bulls out of older cows as longevity is important in replacement heifers.

The only EPD I am interested in is milk. Too high and they become hard keepers that don't last.

 

[Brute 23]

When it comes to ultrasound scan data, I don't do it however I have sold at multivendor sales where they get all the bulls scanned before the sale which I think is useless as the bulls from the various vendors have all been on a different feed regime so they can't be compared yet buyers will look down the list and compare.
Ken

The same can be said for WW also, imo, until feed rations and locations start being factored.

 

[TCRanch]

But those breeders like I have mentioned, that sell their bulls direct, private treaty, can not and will not sell an inferior bull

Nailed it! When I need a new bull, I call my breeder, tell him whether I want a heifer bull or terminal, and he delivers, sight unseen. But he knows my herd, he's taken the time to go through all my previous registrations (prior to purchasing from him) and selects the best bull for my operation. I'm getting a new heifer bull sometime this month. He has two half-brothers but hasn't decided which one has the best docility (which is huge in my operation). I'll get one and the other will be his clean-up bull.

 

[Ky hills]

I agree, @Warren Allison @TCRanch i prefer going to a breeder rather than a sale. I like to see the management and disposition of the bulls, as much as anything else. I don't care how good a bull is if it's not fairly docile I want nothing to do with it. I also prefer getting young bulls from 12-15 months up to 18 months if they are good natured. That way they kind of are still young enough to get accustomed to our management and are not set in their ways.
I've found that a lot of older animals are set in their ways and we have to work around them and I don't want that especially with a bull.
I like to be able to ask questions of the breeders. It gives you more time to look at the bulls than if at a sale. I think a lot of times Cattle can get stirred up at sales and not really be themselves, however it's too risky to take a chance on the auctioneers or sale managers word that they were just fine earlier.
I have a couple breeders that I respect and trust and this year it's likely going to be a hard choice between the two, once we see what both of them have. Seen bulls from one yesterday and waiting to set up a time with the other.
They are both long time breeders that I consider friends and trust what they tell me.
I was buying several bulls from a different breeder a few years back, I liked their management in that they weren't pushing their bulls to get fat and were priced reasonably. My issue came when they tried to sell us a bull with one testicle.
I've had a lot of things. go wrong with bulls over the years and want as good and right as I can get for the best price.
I'm willing to pay the going rate but not close to that or even a major discount for an animal that already has an obvious issue.
I've bought the second high price bull at a popular consignment bull sale in our area years ago only to have him go down in a couple of days to hardware disease. He did not likely get it here as the breeder admitted he had another animal that had hardware at that time but would not stand behind the bull. He hung up the phone.
Would never do any business with him or his program again ever.

 

[Lazy M]

I agree, @Warren Allison @TCRanch i prefer going to a breeder rather than a sale. I like to see the management and disposition of the bulls, as much as anything else. I don't care how good a bull is if it's not fairly docile I want nothing to do with it. I also prefer getting young bulls from 12-15 months up to 18 months if they are good natured. That way they kind of are still young enough to get accustomed to our management and are not set in their ways.
I've found that a lot of older animals are set in their ways and we have to work around them and I don't want that especially with a bull.
I like to be able to ask questions of the breeders. It gives you more time to look at the bulls than if at a sale. I think a lot of times Cattle can get stirred up at sales and not really be themselves, however it's too risky to take a chance on the auctioneers or sale managers word that they were just fine earlier.
I have a couple breeders that I respect and trust and this year it's likely going to be a hard choice between the two, once we see what both of them have. Seen bulls from one yesterday and waiting to set up a time with the other.
They are both long time breeders that I consider friends and trust what they tell me.
I was buying several bulls from a different breeder a few years back, I liked their management in that they weren't pushing their bulls to get fat and were priced reasonably. My issue came when they tried to sell us a bull with one testicle.
I've had a lot of things. go wrong with bulls over the years and want as good and right as I can get for the best price.
I'm willing to pay the going rate but not close to that or even a major discount for an animal that already has an obvious issue.
I've bought the second high price bull at a popular consignment bull sale in our area years ago only to have him go down in a couple of days to hardware disease. He did not likely get it here as the breeder admitted he had another animal that had hardware at that time but would not stand behind the bull. He hung up the phone.
Would never do any business with him or his program again ever.

Reminds me of my situation years ago:
Thread 'NIGHTMARE' https://www.cattletoday.com/threads/nightmare.91472/
Still burns at me.