Herefords. How soon we forget!

[greenwillowhereford II]

The answer to that is the carcass data in question was supplied by the fact that over 60% of fat cattle back then graded choice or higher.

Yeah, with a yield grade of 7 I know it don't go that low now, they had to add a couple more grades, for them fat little suckers back then :lol: about enough meat on the carcass for 1 big mac. Efficiency at its very best.

As far as performance goes, if you put a smaller framed, thicker made cow on better rations she will usually produce more. Try putting a larger framed horsey modern cow on lesser rations and see what you get. A train wreck most likely.

I'm not sure why you would associate large, hard doing cows with a modern day Hereford breeder who likes to show a little :lol:
Cow pictured below was raised and fed some grain, she was a show calf prospect. I decided not to show her. In the picture she about 4 years old, she had just had her second calf, maybe 2 days earlier, she had not seen any grain in about two and a half years, except every now and then I would take a bucket out, to move them, or call them up and feed them some just for fun. Oh! shes about a 5.8 frame

This cow was raised on grass, she did see some grain when she was weaned, I think it helps them get through that stressfull time a little easier with a liitle something in their belly. Picture is from this fall, she will calve again this spring. [I hope] I had her in there, baby sitting the bull, while I had heifers in a lot close by that I wanted to AI. Shes a 6 frame

I do have some older cows that are probably 7 frames, one of them is the mother of the cow above.
I was just using pics that I had uploaded a while back, and found this one, the mother of the cow pictured above. She probably a seven frame, and lives on grass and hay like the rest of my cows.

Anyway my point is, that not all breeders who like the newer, showy type cattle like me, want hard doing, big framed, horsey modern train wrecks

Good looking cows, Rocket. I must take issue with your yield grade 7 remark: One of the closest bloodlines/herds we have today that are basically the same as they were 40-60-70-130 years ago is the Lents Anxiety 4th herd. I have seen the data on those cattle. They quality grade choice AND yield grade 1. I challenge you to find any other cattle in any breed that will do it as consistently.

Having said this, my frame score cap is about 6, prefer 5-5.5. I lightly range cube in the winter (15# per head per week). We do the occasional show heifer who gets by on about half to 2/3 the feed the competition does. Our bull weaning weights range from 550-700# grass and milk, and heifers 500-600#. Bull yearling weights lightly pushed 1,000-1,100+, yearling scrotal 33-38 CM.

 

[rocket2222]

Good looking cows, Rocket. I must take issue with your yield grade 7 remark: One of the closest bloodlines/herds we have today that are basically the same as they were 40-60-70-130 years ago is the Lents Anxiety 4th herd. I have seen the data on those cattle. They quality grade choice AND yield grade 1. I challenge you to find any other cattle in any breed that will do it as consistently.

Having said this, my frame score cap is about 6, prefer 5-5.5. I lightly range cube in the winter (15# per head per week). We do the occasional show heifer who gets by on about half to 2/3 the feed the competition does. Our bull weaning weights range from 550-700# grass and milk, and heifers 500-600#. Bull yearling weights lightly pushed 1,000-1,100+, yearling scrotal 33-38 CM.greenwillowhereford II
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Just having a little fun with the yield grade thing. I may have to feed mine some this winter. We had a little bit of a drought this summer, there was no second cutting hay, and for some reason 1st cutting was not that great, although we had rain in the spring? So I might not have enough hay. I'm about the same as you on ww, my yw are higher, but I will feed them some, sometimes, it depends on the calf and the time of year. For instance, when I weaned the calf above, the grain made her a little fat right away, I had plenty of grass, so I put her out on pasture, and she been there ever since. I always feed calves at weaning time, I really think that helps.

 

[rocket2222]

I do realize that Knersie, I just have a problem [although it seems no one else does] with folks using bulls from those times 40/50 years ago, when there was no performance all, but maybe they had some good carcass qualities, but thats it. There might have been some cattle with some frame to them back then, but i've searched the AHA database looking back that far for some good epds, and I don't see them. The other thing about going back that far looking at epds, they are not that reliable, up untill Whole Herd TPR was started in 2001, the AHA was constantly asking breeders to send data on all calves, not just their best performing calves, a very common practice, even in the late 90's. One of the main reasons Whoe Herd TPR was introduced, it forced breeders to send in complete records, so they could finally get some true performance data. Can not really imagine how screw up records are from 40/50 years ago.

I'm trying to figure out where you are getting the idea that there was no growth or performance in any cattle 40/50 years ago?? Just because you see pictures of dumpy, little show ring cattle from that time period, that doesn't represent what all breeders were doing at the time. There were a lot of range breeders and cowmen who didn't follow the fads of the times and raised cattle with performance that worked and produced good beef. Just like there were breeders who didn't chase the frame score fad and start raising a bunch of 8+ frame cattle in the 80's.

If you are going by epd's, I can tell you there are cattle out there with pretty good actual performance and some very avg. epd's. I've know of two cows that had 7 calves with an average yearling ratio over 108 and their YW epd's were under 50. I didn't hesitate to use their offspring. There are also some outstanding registered cattle out in the real world that don't have any epd's.

Yes, I realize that there were plenty of good Herefords around back then, and numbers don't sometimes tell the whole story, and I probably am pushing the dink/no growth thing a little to hard. I really do think that using 40 year old bulls is not the answer though, surely we've made improvements over that time. Look at it this way, if those older bulls were so great, how come they didn't pass that greatness on to sons and grandsons and great grandson etc. IMO By going 30/40/50 years to use that bull again, you are really saying breeders have not made any progress over that time, you are also saying that when he [the bull] was being used back then, never improved anything also, he bred no sons or grandsons that we could use today that were better than himself. If he didn't improve the breed then, why is he going to do it now.

 

[Elder Statesman]

I do realize that Knersie, I just have a problem [although it seems no one else does] with folks using bulls from those times 40/50 years ago, when there was no performance all, but maybe they had some good carcass qualities, but thats it. There might have been some cattle with some frame to them back then, but i've searched the AHA database looking back that far for some good epds, and I don't see them. The other thing about going back that far looking at epds, they are not that reliable, up untill Whole Herd TPR was started in 2001, the AHA was constantly asking breeders to send data on all calves, not just their best performing calves, a very common practice, even in the late 90's. One of the main reasons Whoe Herd TPR was introduced, it forced breeders to send in complete records, so they could finally get some true performance data. Can not really imagine how screw up records are from 40/50 years ago.

I'm trying to figure out where you are getting the idea that there was no growth or performance in any cattle 40/50 years ago?? Just because you see pictures of dumpy, little show ring cattle from that time period, that doesn't represent what all breeders were doing at the time. There were a lot of range breeders and cowmen who didn't follow the fads of the times and raised cattle with performance that worked and produced good beef. Just like there were breeders who didn't chase the frame score fad and start raising a bunch of 8+ frame cattle in the 80's.

If you are going by epd's, I can tell you there are cattle out there with pretty good actual performance and some very avg. epd's. I've know of two cows that had 7 calves with an average yearling ratio over 108 and their YW epd's were under 50. I didn't hesitate to use their offspring. There are also some outstanding registered cattle out in the real world that don't have any epd's.

Yes, I realize that there were plenty of good Herefords around back then, and numbers don't sometimes tell the whole story, and I probably am pushing the dink/no growth thing a little to hard. I really do think that using 40 year old bulls is not the answer though, surely we've made improvements over that time. Look at it this way, if those older bulls were so great, how come they didn't pass that greatness on to sons and grandsons and great grandson etc. IMO By going 30/40/50 years to use that bull again, you are really saying breeders have not made any progress over that time, you are also saying that when he [the bull] was being used back then, never improved anything also, he bred no sons or grandsons that we could use today that were better than himself. If he didn't improve the breed then, why is he going to do it now.

In the case of King Ten and a lot of the Mark Donald cattle from 30 and 40 years ago, they got caught in the race for FRAME trap of the late 70's and 80's. At that time, most of the so called "progressive" breeders didn't think 5 frame cattle were good enough, regardless of their growth or carcass performance. So those bloodlines got shoved to the shadows except by the guys who were more interested in raising beef instead of getting ribbons. So they didn't get used a lot. Thats what happens when breeders and associations get more concerned over the "chrome" and don't pay attention to the "drive train". Politics sometimes played a role as well.

Now that efficiency and carcass quality are getting some publicity, some folks are coming back to those bloodlines. I'm not wanting a whole herd of genetics from 40/50 years ago, but a shot of it sure is going to work out nicely.

 

[KMacGinley]

Rocket, the animals that you have pictured are beautiful and not what I had in mind when I made my horsey comment.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Dang Rocket, those are some nice looking cows. You should be proud of them.
That is what we are aiming for in out herd.
Unfortunately a number of years ago the hubby got the herd going the wrong way. Now we need to reverse course and go the right way. Going to take a number of years to get the cows we had born back in 2000 they are good sized and nicely muscled. We plan to next year AI them with semen from MCR King Ten 595. They should make up for the smaller frame size and he should add more muscle then we have now.
Been trying to post pics of our herd, but have not been having any luck. If I can I will post them.

 

[Herefords.US]

We plan to next year AI them with semen from MCR King Ten 595.

I'm going to have to call David Breiner up and tell him that he owes me a commission for promoting his bull like I have! :lol2: Of course, if I had it to do over, the bull would be half mine! :dunce:

George

 

[I luv herfrds]

Four year old cow, bull is standing behind her
Gee George, then I would just have to be knocking on your door and bugging you then.

 

[Herefords.US]

I'll admit to not being fond of your cow in the foreground(it might be the way she's standing), although the one on the other side of the bull looks OK to me. And those cows in the background look like easy-keeping butterballs! Of course, the important thing is how they milk and raise those calves.

Mainly, I'd like to see more capacity in the cow in the foreground. But I've got several in my herd that I feel the same way about.

George

 

[rocket2222]

Rocket, the animals that you have pictured are beautiful and not what I had in mind when I made my horsey comment.

Oh, I've owned a few horsey train wrecks too.

 

[rocket2222]

Dang Rocket, those are some nice looking cows. You should be proud of them.
That is what we are aiming for in out herd.
Unfortunately a number of years ago the hubby got the herd going the wrong way. Now we need to reverse course and go the right way. Going to take a number of years to get the cows we had born back in 2000 they are good sized and nicely muscled. We plan to next year AI them with semen from MCR King Ten 595. They should make up for the smaller frame size and he should add more muscle then we have now.
Been trying to post pics of our herd, but have not been having any luck. If I can I will post them.

Us hubbies sure do get blamed for a lot of stuff :lol:

 

[rocket2222]

Four year old cow, bull is standing behind her
Gee George, then I would just have to be knocking on your door and bugging you then.

A lot of those cows at the back there, look like they have some good depth, and shape in their rib. It shouldn't take you to long to get where you want to be.

 

[Herefords.US]

I came across this picture that was put out by the AHA in 1969:

The Modern Hereford Cow 1969

Comments?

George

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Looks like she could make a fair modern Hereford cow now.

 

[I luv herfrds]

She is not one of our best. Tried to get the picture of one that is picked to be AIed to 595. Won't come up.
That pic was taken last fall and the temp was in the mid 90's. Those butterballs had just watered up. That is why they look so fat.
Rocket he was the one picking the bulls and replacement heifers not me back then.
I pick the replacement heifers now. He still picks the bulls though.

 

[Herefords.US]

Looks like she could make a fair modern Hereford cow now.

Well, that picture was made shortly after the Bonsma invasion into the American cattle scene. I can still remember the adage: " A bull is a bull and should look like a bull, a cow is a cow and should look like a cow, etc."

Compared to MY "ideal", this modern Hereford cow needs more capacity, length, a little thicker front, and maybe a little less leg. In other words she should look more like the first cow that rocket posted.

George

 

[Herefords.US]

Predominant 25U - Picture ~1968

Ace Broker - 1988 Grand Champion Bull at the National Polled Hereford Show
Frame Size 10

H Easy Deal 609 ET - 2008 Grand Champion Bull -Denver and Fort Worth

As far as finding some older genetics that could contribute something to "today's" cattle, I'd much rather go back 40 years than 20 - in many cases.

George

 

[KNERSIE]

This bull is a 1916 model, I'd much rather use him than the 1988 bull George posted

Compare the frame size of these cattle to the 2008 bull. It seems the breed has gone the full cycle, this photo dates back to 1904.

The extremes the breed went to first the pont type of 1952

and to "correct" the pony types they went to racehorses

I always wonder what the people posing behind the bull was doing there? Showing off their boots?

 

[Herefords.US]

This bull is a 1916 model, I'd much rather use him than the 1988 bull George posted

Predominant 25U was a bull that was used to start the process of bringing some of the "pony" type cattle up to a larger size. I believe he was a Canadian bred bull. He appears in the background of many American and Canadian Herefords. BT CL Domino 15G is one example. And we know how often THAT bull appears somewhere in present day Hereford pedigrees.

The Easy Deal bull winning the championships this year is a genuine "scale down" in frame size from some previous year's champions.

I remember talking to a breeder a couple of years back about the size of Hereford cattle. His comment to me was that the cattle winning in the showring were just as big as they were 20 years ago when the frame race was in full swing. The only difference was that they had a few inches less leg on them.

George

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Looks like she could make a fair modern Hereford cow now.

Well, that picture was made shortly after the Bonsma invasion into the American cattle scene. I can still remember the adage: " A bull is a bull and should look like a bull, a cow is a cow and should look like a cow, etc."

Compared to MY "ideal", this modern Hereford cow needs more capacity, length, a little thicker front, and maybe a little less leg. In other words she should look more like the first cow that rocket posted.

George

I agree with you totally. That is why I said a "FAIR" modern cow.

The Predominant bull would be welcome in my pasture right now. The ACE bull....the people behind him are to illustrate how tall he is I'm sure....back then some were ignorant enough to think that was a good thing. I still like the Predominant bull better than the Easy Deal bull. I think I might even like the Prime Lad better too.