beef
Well-known member
Frankie":1g9o2fgv said:But for some strange reason, I think that Angus bulls should marble, at least breed average.
Approximately half of all Angus bulls are below breed average for IMF EPD.
Fintry of Graham 47539
- Thread starter beef
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
Approximately half of all Angus bulls are below breed average for IMF EPD.
SEC
Well-known member
Frankie":1696nb0w said:
I have pictured enough cattle over the years for catalogues, ads, etc to know that if a animal can stand in a normal position this basic structure is fine. If they can't stand normally it's because their legs are out of whack. I don't know if his front end is out of whack or not by the pic.
Incidentally I have seen the bull at stud and never looked at his numbers or data and know that I would use the bull.
What good does his bwt, wwt or ywt tell me? If he's raised at SAV, there's a good chance that the weights would be very high. If he was raised at Sam Wylie's I don't think the feed bucket is the same.
So what do the weights tell me. When you look at commercial heifers do you ask for their record of performance? I never have and don't know anyone who does. Amazing that commercial guys can get by on eye rather than numbers eh!
Average yesterday, today and tomorrow will be different so we should keep raising the level of IMF. I think I will go by some Holsteins instead.
SEC":3k8ywl15 said:
So your answer is "no, I wouldn't use him based just on his picture."
You've seen him. I haven't. Have you got calves on the ground by the bull?
What good does his bwt, wwt or ywt tell me? If he's raised at SAV, there's a good chance that the weights would be very high. If he was raised at Sam Wylie's I don't think the feed bucket is the same.
His actual performance doesn't tell me much, for the reasons you list. But his EPDs will tell me something.
So what do the weights tell me. When you look at commercial heifers do you ask for their record of performance? I never have and don't know anyone who does. Amazing that commercial guys can get by on eye rather than numbers eh!
Yeah, amazing that you claim "Why does anyone even need to look at his EPD's to decide that they could use this bull. Just look at him, he's masculine, correct and looks to be average muscle." when you've actually seen the bull, not just his photo. Commercial bull buyers I talk to are interested in weights and EPDs. They don't just use their "eye."
IMO, we do need to keep raising the IMF level. In case you've been ignoring it, quality grade is down in the industry. Management is as important as gentics, but lower quality grades are not a good thing. Consumers are willing to pay more for marbled beef. Consumers prefer marbled beef. I think Holsteins are probably a good choice for you. Good move. :roll:
SEC
Well-known member
Are you saying you can't tell by a picture if a bull has muscle or not? Don't need to see a bull or not to know if he has muscle, a picture is worth a thousand words.
I never said that there shouldn't be any marbling or that it wasn't a concern. But especially in yearling cattle that go to the feedlot, they will marble, time/age seem to be as much of a factor as anything. Definitely mgmt has a big bearing on it as well.
I said I couldn't get semen on the bull as it's not exportable.
You'd better inform me what EPD's will tell you because you obviously get more out of them than I do.
Not saying weights aren't important, as they do have a place. But I don't need to know what the weights are to know if I am going to like a bull or not. Secondly, 450lb wwt bulls become steers not bulls. After that you probably won't notice much difference from bull to bull.
I never said that there shouldn't be any marbling or that it wasn't a concern. But especially in yearling cattle that go to the feedlot, they will marble, time/age seem to be as much of a factor as anything. Definitely mgmt has a big bearing on it as well.
I said I couldn't get semen on the bull as it's not exportable.
You'd better inform me what EPD's will tell you because you obviously get more out of them than I do.
Not saying weights aren't important, as they do have a place. But I don't need to know what the weights are to know if I am going to like a bull or not. Secondly, 450lb wwt bulls become steers not bulls. After that you probably won't notice much difference from bull to bull.
SEC":2tnyikho said:
Some photos I can tell; others I can't. The condition a bull is carrying in the photo, lighting, position, all those things would change how the bull looks. I saw a photo in a newspaper one time of a bull without a sheath. Considering the breed, I figured they airbrushed it out and didn't get a new one drawn in before the photo got into the publication. That picture was worth a thousand words to me.
And I never said you did. No, cattle start marbling at a young age. If he don't have the genetics to marble, you can feed them forever and he won't.
I missed that. Sorry.
His 2.8 BW EPD tells me that his calves would be EXPECTED to weigh 2.8 more pounds at birth than if I used an Angus bull with a 0 BW EPD on the cows. EPDs are a much better indicator of a bull's breeding ability than his own performance or any photo.
As long as bull buyers want to know weights, EPDs, pedigree, performance, ultrasound data, we'll keep providing it for them.
SEC
Well-known member
There is nothing wrong with supplying your customers information, although I believe that they will choose not to buy/use a bull because his " __ __" is not the highest. Quality of the animal is first and foremost.
We don't have Ear'd cattle up here, so for the most part, especially Angus they will marble and they will taste fine.
Do you finish your culls (steers/heifers)
I am not being a smart ass, but asking because you seem to be very worried about a trait that from average to the top 1% is very little difference. But I thought maybe you finished your culls so you might have 1st hand experience on what the "real" difference really are.
We are thinking that we do need to finish our culls and learn some life lessons ourselves.
We don't have Ear'd cattle up here, so for the most part, especially Angus they will marble and they will taste fine.
Do you finish your culls (steers/heifers)
I am not being a smart ass, but asking because you seem to be very worried about a trait that from average to the top 1% is very little difference. But I thought maybe you finished your culls so you might have 1st hand experience on what the "real" difference really are.
We are thinking that we do need to finish our culls and learn some life lessons ourselves.
beef
Well-known member
Frankie:
When you say, " If he don't have the genetics to marble, you can feed them forever and he won't.", are you implying that calves from the bull we are discussing won't have the genetics to marble? Keep in mind that this bull would rank around the top 10% for IMF in the Simmental database. Also keep in mind that the average IMF EPD for Angus born in the 70's was a negative (-).03. Those are the cattle which helped make Angus famous for marbling.
When you say, " If he don't have the genetics to marble, you can feed them forever and he won't.", are you implying that calves from the bull we are discussing won't have the genetics to marble? Keep in mind that this bull would rank around the top 10% for IMF in the Simmental database. Also keep in mind that the average IMF EPD for Angus born in the 70's was a negative (-).03. Those are the cattle which helped make Angus famous for marbling.
I'd use him. His front is sound but a little bold if you're worrying about heifers. His back wheels look like he has quite a bit of base width coming out of his stifle joint but by the time he puts feet on the ground, looks like he's tight rope walking. I've seen that on some thick cattle before. It puts stress on hocks. No bull is perfect so If I needed a bull like him (which I do) I'd use him. He has enough capacity that his daughters should have room to intake enough forage to maintain themselves. I like him pretty well myself but I don't like his atypical (for an angus) nasty looking throat latch.
beef":1sry71gt said:Frankie":1sry71gt said:But for some strange reason, I think that Angus bulls should marble, at least breed average.
Approximately half of all Angus bulls are below breed average for IMF EPD.
How do you figure???? :shock:
SEC
Well-known member
Yes, I would use the bull based on the picture, breeder and pedigree. Those three things carry more weight than anything else.
ga. prime
Well-known member
Txwalt":1rng7ps4 said:
I don't know Walt. A lot of people get riled up at anything Frankie posts. I've been trying to figure that one out for three years. She's one of the most knowledgable and articulate posters on the board. Go, Frankie.
About that bull, what's with that hair?
beef
Well-known member
dun":2kt16jt3 said:
dun:
The Simmental Association is including Angus bulls in their EPD database. You can definitely see where they stand in relation to Simmental cattle. Take Bon View New Design 878. His Simmental EPDs are .51 for M, -.50 for RE and 61 for yearling weight. He is in the top 1% of the Simmental breed for marbling, the bottom 5% for RE and the top 35% for YW. The Fintry bull is not published in the ASA database but I think I have a fair idea as to where he would rank based upon his relationship in the AAA's database to the Angus bulls which are listed in the ASA database.
beef":1tb8p2pb said:
No, I'm not talking about this specific bull. I'm speaking of genetics, in general. We used to think that marbling was the last fat to go on, now we know that's not true. I've had ultrasound techs tell me they can identify potentially high marbling calves still nursing their dams. Whether they'll wind up as high quality beef will depend on their management. But if they don't have the genetics to marble, feeding them will only put on backfat.
That's interesting about Simmentals. Do you have a link to their database that compares Angus bulls to Simmental bulls?
beef
Well-known member
Frankie:
Here's the link:
http://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/s ... een_pg1.vm
Just type in the name of a popular Angus bull. Many of them are included and have fairly high accuracies.
My point was that when people say this or that Angus bull lacks marbling, they need to understand that the lowest marbling Angus would be high marbling bulls in other breeds.
Here's the link:
http://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/s ... een_pg1.vm
Just type in the name of a popular Angus bull. Many of them are included and have fairly high accuracies.
My point was that when people say this or that Angus bull lacks marbling, they need to understand that the lowest marbling Angus would be high marbling bulls in other breeds.
beef":17ssbemo said:
Thanks for the link. I didn't realize you were comparing this bull to another breed. I thought Simmental was the highest marbling Continental breed?
I typed 878's name into the program. It shows him at .51 marbling. His Angus EPD is only .34.
Do you have any information on how they did this conversion?
beef
Well-known member
Frankie:
A large number of Simmental breeders are using Angus bulls to produce registered, hybrid Simmental. My understanding is that their weights and measurements are turned in and compared to their full blood herdmates to generate EPDs. It is possible that they also use the Angus bulls' Angus EPDs in some manner. A Simmental breeeder can probably shed more light on how they generate the Angus/Simmental EPDs.
A large number of Simmental breeders are using Angus bulls to produce registered, hybrid Simmental. My understanding is that their weights and measurements are turned in and compared to their full blood herdmates to generate EPDs. It is possible that they also use the Angus bulls' Angus EPDs in some manner. A Simmental breeeder can probably shed more light on how they generate the Angus/Simmental EPDs.
SEC":dtxhv1ok said:
No, we haven't fed any of our cattle in years. We've tried to buy some calves from local people who use our bulls, but most of them run more than one bull in a pasture or feed them themselves. I know of one rancher who has sent several sets of calves through the OK Steer Feedout program by one of our bulls and has done very well. I expect that next spring we'll use a clean up bull for the first time in probably 15 years. We'll likely send all his calves though the Noble Foundation's feedout program. I'm looking forward to that.
bulldealer
Well-known member
Why the clean-up bull?
