Cattle people/ farmers are getting old.

[Nkline]

Of course I don't know the details in this particular situation. But sometimes, there is the issue of priorities that comes into play. Some people have dreams and goals and sacrifice and work and find a way to achieve them. Some people want it all - fancy cars, house, boat, vacations and travel, and "luxuries" that many consider "essentials". Those could interfere with other dreams. Fifty years ago when land was "cheaper", people in general did not have as many vehicles, as nice of houses, take as many trips, cable tv and such "essentials". Nothing wrong with any of those things. But they do figure into priorities and achieving various goals. There is more consumption and spur of the moment spending now than 50 years ago for sure. Look at the cost of education now. Why so high? Because expectations have changed. People expect to live in expensive apartments near school, not in dorms. They expect fancy facilities with research and expensive stadiums and the "experience". The demand for "more" of the experience causes the price to be higher.

A doctor and a hard working person in commercial construction that can't afford enough land to be useful needs to perhaps take an objective look at the overall situation. Maybe move to another area where land is cheaper or set an amount to save each month to build some cash.
I suspect that many people want to run cattle, but also want to set limits on where and how. The demand for rural land in some areas is due to nearby cities with people looking for "Green Acres". In some areas, the land is high value due to row crop value - $12-15,000/acre or more. That price is not due to urban sprawl, but is being paid by farmers to raise corn and beans and such. Cows probably are not going to work on that land. At the same time that some grain farmers say that land price is too high and grain prices are too low. But prime row crop land in Iowa sells for a "high" price. Supply and demand set prices. If no one is buying, prices would decline.
This is not a new issue, but an old one that evolves over time. Work more, work smarter, plan more will help achieve goals. But, most of us have to prioritize and sacrifice to have what we want or need. Most won't have it all.

I'm in Iowa land is mostly between 7-14k an acre in my area, but there are areas that can't be farmed. In addition to that there are plenty of cornstalks to feed and graze in the winter. There is also access to distillers grains and other byproducts. You just have to figure out how to structure your cattle operation based on your resources. While my area would not be my first pick for most profitable places to raise cows, or operation expansion, it is not that bad.

 

[simme]

This thread has gone on for a while. A couple months ago in this same thread, I posted about an Angus operation in my state. Started by a young couple in the 90's. Started with pretty much nothing - except for an education in animal science, a good positive attitude, advice from other experienced people, a plan and a desire and a dream.

Now run 1400 head, sell 400 bulls per year, have other farm and retail businesses, have 3 adult children working in the family operation, served on the AAA board including as president, appears in ads for some farm products for other companies, recognized and respected in the business. No family silver spoons. They made their own way and are living the dream. I am sure there were some stressful times at points early on, but I never heard them say that it can't be done, or that the odds were stacked against them, or that everyone giving advice was stupid, or that things were just too expensive, and on and on. They are a success story.

Now buckle your seat belts. I am going to offer some more advice. There seems to be a tendency of some to just complain and disagree. When I am looking for advice, I try to be open minded and listen. There may be something that I can use and there may not be. But, if I tell the person that they are stupid and that everything they said is useless, there is no advantage to anyone. I can always think those thoughts and discard their advice. But if I express that bitterness to them and the world, I have screwed myself. No one wants to hear or see that attitude. I have always heard that if you don't have anything good to say, just don't say anything. Now, if anyone wants to have a rational discussion on the whys and hows or even debate the accuracy of anyone comments, that is good and healthy and educational. Maybe both sides can learn something from such a discussion.

But bitterness and bullying are not helpful in getting information, advice, making friends or influencing people. But it does make an impression. I worked for 44 years with thousands of people. Most reasonable and helpful. But some with an attitude. That attitude held them back many times and sometimes resulted in a bad experience for them in their career. Early in my career there, I remember an old guy I was working with (he was 48). He told me that his father had explained a principle to him - "Only a fool wins an argument". In other words, a person may be so passionate about something that he beats everyone into submission on a topic and thinks he has won. But he has lost the confidence and relationship with others. He did not "win" at all.

Why this rambling from an old dumb guy? Read again my first paragraph about a success story. Think again about the views and thoughts expressed here. Read again the rest of what I said. Even an old dumb guy should be able to understand.

Who am I talking about? In my work career, I had many sayings. One was that if you feel guilty about a discussion, then you probably are. Another was said when we were dealing with a difficult person. I would say to not worry - we will still be here when that person is gone. It generally turned out to be true. All my advice is worth at least what you pay for it. Maybe more if you apply it. But, I don't give refunds.

 

[Montanaidiot]

I'm a little late to this conversation but I wanted to add my 2 cents. And maybe even get some good advice.

I'm 36 married, kids that are leaving the house quickly. (Adopted kids...I know the math is all wrong) but I have been working in oil and gas for 10+ years making 6 figures. I am 100% debt free. My home is worth 500k+ I have just enough land to run a few feeders every year that I lose money on but I feed alot of friends and family so that makes me happy.

Now I guess to my point. A farm came up for auction a few months back and I sat down and really penciled out every aspect I could. Visited with the neighbors who are lifelong friends. Put months of work into buying a very rundown place with no house or anything. I was ready to dump everything I had into it.... I got outbid by 150k to somebody from out of state who isn't even farming it...it just sits.

I thought I was in a good situation to actually make it happen. Every peice of land that comes on the market I do the math and sadly nothing shows any promise.

I just don't understand after doing g the math so many times how farmers even eat let alone drive around nicer tractors and pickups then most.

I feel like there something I don't understand about all of it. I know it's rude to ask how many acres or how many head but I feel like I need to see a real farm/ranchers books to truly understand what I need to survive and how to survive.

For now I will keep saving and hope someday I can make something happen.

That's my story and when you ask why young people can't get into ag. It's not the drive or lack of interest...its purely the inability to survive.

 

[mml373]

This is too much. It's not money that's holding young people out, it's work ethic and the ability to understand you can't have it all today. Young people are the ones buying all this stuff at inflated prices. I love it when a 30 year old talks to me about how nice it must be to own a ranch, cattle, and equipment. Meanwhile the dummy is driving his $50,000 1/2 ton to his 30 acre hunting "ranch" and telling me how it must be nice to have money. I guess it's fine that an F150 cost $50k + and an F350 cost $100k now but land should still go for $1,200 an acre? I'm gonna guess most of the whiners don't have want it takes physically to keep up 500 acres if it was given to them.

I disagree. I bought a 35 acre farm because that's all I could afford after 23 years of moving every 2 years (military service). No land inherited -- taxes and circumstances forced sale of my mother's family farm this year. I've managed money wisely under the circumstances with military service, though I SHOULD HAVE perhaps bought a home and rented it out after service moved me elsewhere, then sold that property to apply to cash to farm purchase.

A lot of folks just don't have an education in doing smart things with money, and are too far in the rat race (as I was, in the military) to really take the time to think too far into the future.

I'd love 100 or 200 acres, but the costs are just prohibitive. Lenders require money up front in order to buy raw land. $200k in my area bought a run down farm on 35 acres, with a house and shop that I'm now having to rebuild. It isn't work ethic that's the problem, it is economics.

 

[Lucky]

I'm a little late to this conversation but I wanted to add my 2 cents. And maybe even get some good advice.

I'm 36 married, kids that are leaving the house quickly. (Adopted kids...I know the math is all wrong) but I have been working in oil and gas for 10+ years making 6 figures. I am 100% debt free. My home is worth 500k+ I have just enough land to run a few feeders every year that I lose money on but I feed alot of friends and family so that makes me happy.

Now I guess to my point. A farm came up for auction a few months back and I sat down and really penciled out every aspect I could. Visited with the neighbors who are lifelong friends. Put months of work into buying a very rundown place with no house or anything. I was ready to dump everything I had into it.... I got outbid by 150k to somebody from out of state who isn't even farming it...it just sits.

I thought I was in a good situation to actually make it happen. Every peice of land that comes on the market I do the math and sadly nothing shows any promise.

I just don't understand after doing g the math so many times how farmers even eat let alone drive around nicer tractors and pickups then most.

I feel like there something I don't understand about all of it. I know it's rude to ask how many acres or how many head but I feel like I need to see a real farm/ranchers books to truly understand what I need to survive and how to survive.

For now I will keep saving and hope someday I can make something happen.

That's my story and when you ask why young people can't get into ag. It's not the drive or lack of interest...its purely the inability to survive.

I understand your situation and you are probably doing the math correctly. Cattle and land are wealth builders. I venture to says it's been a long long time since cattle paid for themselves, the land, and made a decent living. At least a cow/calf operation.

 

[Heronfish]

I understand your situation and you are probably doing the math correctly. Cattle and land are wealth builders. I venture to says it's been a long long time since cattle paid for themselves, the land, and made a decent living. At least a cow/calf operation.

I can give you a quick run down in my situation.
Right how, I could have purchased quite a bit of grazing land.
But to pay the price, the loan cost would have taken roughly the entire calf cheque. Then I would need to go to work full time to buy the cows and buy the feed. Just to break even.

 

[Banjo]

Back in the day when i was a teenager in FFA class....the FFA creed said in part "I believe in the future of farming, better days thru better ways" that was the future of farming, planting corn from fence row to fence row as we were told, because we needed to "feed the world". We plowed and disked the ground for many years dumping on tons of synthetic fertilizers which used to be cheap and lots of herbicides, fungicides, etc. And we overgrazed the pastures for years and years along with all the chemical fertilizers etc.
The soil in most places is severely depleted, tired and worn out......the only future in farming is in regenerative agriculture...what people like Gabe Brown are doing and Allen Williams and many others.

 

[Lucky]

I disagree. I bought a 35 acre farm because that's all I could afford after 23 years of moving every 2 years (military service). No land inherited -- taxes and circumstances forced sale of my mother's family farm this year. I've managed money wisely under the circumstances with military service, though I SHOULD HAVE perhaps bought a home and rented it out after service moved me elsewhere, then sold that property to apply to cash to farm purchase.

A lot of folks just don't have an education in doing smart things with money, and are too far in the rat race (as I was, in the military) to really take the time to think too far into the future.

I'd love 100 or 200 acres, but the costs are just prohibitive. Lenders require money up front in order to buy raw land. $200k in my area bought a run down farm on 35 acres, with a house and shop that I'm now having to rebuild. It isn't work ethic that's the problem, it is economics.

You can only do what you can do. I can only speak to what goes on in my area. I really wanted to have a ranch in an area about 10-15 miles North of me. The ground is better and the trees are prettier out that way. Unfortunately everyone else wants to live there to wich drove the land prices up. We are in the 3-4k market price now, the land 10 north is in the 10-12k range and has been busted up into mini ranches. Glad I went were I could afford to buy rather than not buy at all.

 

[Lucky]

I can give you a quick run down in my situation.
Right how, I could have purchased quite a bit of grazing land.
But to pay the price, the loan cost would have taken roughly the entire calf cheque. Then I would need to go to work full time to buy the cows and buy the feed. Just to break even.

Welcome to the cattle business.

 

[D2Cat]

Brute 23 said
Most young people want and need to make money.
Everyone in your part of the country independently wealthy D2?
No need for money in these here parts... LOL

Never ceases to amaze me people's lack of reading and comprehension skills.
But sure are quick with opinions without any understanding of what they are attacking. And moderator 3 is at the top of that list.

Going back and reading this thread, your comments about reading, comprehension and understanding reflect back to you also!

I simply suggested Brute modify his sentence from "Most young people want and need to make money." to "Some or Few young people ....." I also said in another thread when you commented about people around here must be wealthy, not wealthy, perhaps lazy. Comprehend?

I was at the local NAPA store Sat to get some parts. It was 1:30. Door locked, sign said closed. Sign by the drive said "Help Wanted". When I went back the owner said they closed because they can't get any one to work. Comprehend?

 

[Otha]

The cows always make money, I couldn't afford to operate if they didn't. The first money they made went mostly to paying for themselves...that's the hard part that most people don't understand. I treat the cattle like any other business. Well sorta I guess....I probably wouldn't work so hard to make so little if I didn't really enjoy it.

I don't mean to get to far into personal finances but I'd like to know what others have made work. Are your cattle making the land payments for the land they are on? Along with paying the taxes, fence cost and paying you back for the down payment? Or are they just paying the direct cost to themselves and you view the land as a separate investment? I was thinking the first piece of land I buy I will try to set it up where the cattle operation pays fair market lease into an account that the land payment comes out of. Now I am sure I'll be adding to that account from my town job too but at least I will know how much it's costing each group.

 

[simme]

There are always exceptions to most everything. But it is not realistic to be able to save a little down payment, purchase land, house, equipment, facilities, cows, quit your day job, work full time on the farm and make it past the first year for a person just starting out. More likely the path is to rent land, have a few cows, work full time for living expenses and slowly accumulate land, cattle and equipment over time. Building equity and wealth for the long term. For a couple, maybe the person with the highest earning potential works a day job and the other tends to the farm. Or have a business with more income potential that is complementary to cattle. Such as land clearing, hauling, skid steer and excavator work, fencing, construction. Something that has income but allows you to share common resources like equipment.

Situations that I personally know of - years of college to become an animal science professor with income and benefits. Work for the university while you build your herd. She and her husband have brahma and simme cattle in Mississippi. Regular articles in cattle magazines about her that you have probably read. Friend of my kids from the junior simmental association.

I know of a couple of veterinarians in North Carolina that were able to use their vet practices to move into fairly substantial cattle and farming operations. Point is that in addition to a work ethic and desire, you have to work out the economics to get started. Hardest part probably is getting started. And there is not a 12 step plan in a book or brochure that lists all the steps.
But there are examples of people who have made it work. Persistence - I have heard that people fail a few times before they have success. Sacrifice and compromise - opportunities might not be located where you want them. Lots of long term family farming operations in some pretty remote areas. Might have to give up the big house for a while. In the beginning, I think breaking even and getting by while also working a full time job would be considered a success for many.

 

[Brute 23]

It is not an option to buy land here based on agricultural production. Your competition in the market, here, is willing to pay more for the land for a host of reasons.

 

[Otha]

It is not an option to buy land here based on agricultural production. Your competition in the market, here, is willing to pay more for the land for a host of reasons.

Does anyone know what parts of the country land is traded based on it's agricultural value? I would guess it would be areas where it takes 50 acres or more to run a cow. And at least 200 miles from a walmart.

 

[shaz]

I don't mean to get to far into personal finances but I'd like to know what others have made work. Are your cattle making the land payments for the land they are on? Along with paying the taxes, fence cost and paying you back for the down payment? Or are they just paying the direct cost to themselves and you view the land as a separate investment? I was thinking the first piece of land I buy I will try to set it up where the cattle operation pays fair market lease into an account that the land payment comes out of. Now I am sure I'll be adding to that account from my town job too but at least I will know how much it's costing each group.

I don't mind talking finance.
I bought 173 acres on an 8 year owner financing deal where he wanted prime interest and I agreed to prime federal funds rate. Paid 288K for the place which works out to over 36K in payments per year. Full time job, 50 mama cows I barely made it work. Last payment was 2013 and I was glad to be done.

 

[smartin0022]

With FSA's Direct Farm Ownership Loans, "we keep America's agriculture growing."

Farm Ownership Loans offer up to 100 percent financing and are a valuable resource to help farmers and ranchers purchase or enlarge family farms, improve and expand current operations, increase agricultural productivity, and assist with land tenure to save farmland for future generations. With a maximum loan amount of $600,000 ($300,150 for Beginning Farmer Down Payment), all FSA Direct Farm Ownership Loans are financed and serviced by the Agency through local Farm Loan Officers and Farm Loan Managers. The funding comes from Congressional appropriations as part of the USDA budget.

You can use what's available to all if you are willing to spend extra time and find the right land. You gotta want it bad enough to put in the time. Hardest loan I ever went through due to the extended process and long closing times. But it can get you a farm with or without a down payment. There are many more programs out there for the first time farmers etc. All good programs IMO low interest and as much as I hate it backed by the government. They are considered commercial loans don't even show on a regular credit report. I don't know if it's everywhere but they also have programs for feed pads, watering systems, handling facilities that are 100% funded by them. One rancher here has used almost 70k of that type funding to really set up a nice place. Lots of red tape and hours developing business plans ans projections along with lengthy applications. But for the guy getting started Govt does want people farming and that's why they set up those type programs for the underdog and the big dreamers.
PM me if you have ?'s about it I'll tell you what I know. But best to call a loan agent at the local FSA office in your location.

 

[Heronfish]

Welcome to the cattle business.

It's not a business if it loses money. A drug addiction would be cheaper

 

[shaz]

It's not a business if it loses money. A drug addiction would be cheaper

Maybe.
I decided to look at what the farm actually does for me. Other than just calf proceeds.
1) Use feedlot scrapings for potting soil around the house. Savings is maybe 50.00 per year.
2) Wood heat. Probably saving 4K per year over propane. That's really nice in a year like this.
3) Hunting lease - 2K per year covers property taxes with a little left over.
4) Meat. Put one cow per year in the freezer for savings of maybe 1000.00?
5) Dirt - My 79 year old dad has a dirt business in one of my hayfields. Don't know if he makes any money but the point is we have natural resources.

Then there are the intangibles like exercise, place to fish, shoot guns ect...

 

[mml373]

I disagree. I bought a 35 acre farm because that's all I could afford after 23 years of moving every 2 years (military service). No land inherited -- taxes and circumstances forced sale of my mother's family farm this year. I've managed money wisely under the circumstances with military service, though I SHOULD HAVE perhaps bought a home and rented it out after service moved me elsewhere, then sold that property to apply to cash to farm purchase.

A lot of folks just don't have an education in doing smart things with money, and are too far in the rat race (as I was, in the military) to really take the time to think too far into the future.

I'd love 100 or 200 acres, but the costs are just prohibitive. Lenders require money up front in order to buy raw land. $200k in my area bought a run down farm on 35 acres, with a house and shop that I'm now having to rebuild. It isn't work ethic that's the problem, it is economics.

I'll follow up by saying that $400k still only gets you 35-40 acres, and a nicer house. Big parcels of land are tough to come by. I'm guessing because these are typically passed down to subsequent generations of farming family members.

 

[simme]

Seems like there are some tracts available. Just a few examples from a quick search. All these much less per acre than most of the discussion. Probably none of them are ideal, but acres at less than $4000 each

341 acres for $2346/acre. https://www.landwatch.com/mineral-county-west-virginia-farms-and-ranches-for-sale/pid/409215703

287 acres for $2930/acre https://www.landwatch.com/le-flore-county-oklahoma-farms-and-ranches-for-sale/pid/410572150

225 acres for $2888/acre https://www.landwatch.com/big-horn-county-montana-farms-and-ranches-for-sale/pid/411719641

349 acres for $3975/acre https://www.landwatch.com/mcculloch-county-texas-farms-and-ranches-for-sale/pid/412659320

480 acres for $1770/acre https://www.landwatch.com/baca-county-colorado-farms-and-ranches-for-sale/pid/334159124