Cattle people/ farmers are getting old.

[D2Cat]

I keep hearing how you need to own land to make it with cattle. I know a lot of people who started by leasing land. At least one or more in each of the last 8 decades. I hear people saying there is no land available to lease where they live. So why continue to live there? A friend of mine from church was managing a ranch a little north of here. The owners of that ranch decided they didn't want to own cattle any more so he had to go to another job. Those owners might not own cattle anymore but someone will be running cows there. That is a lease which was available. There are others. You just have to look.
I know young people today who work for bigger ranches where the ranch allows them to run some cows as part of their pay. Next thing you know their herd out grows what they are allowed and they are finding a lease of their own. Plus they have been learning the business while getting paid.
I have reached the point where the negativity on this board no longer surprises me. There are people young and old who accomplish things by not listening to the negativity and stepping out and following their dreams.

That on the job training, in many cases, is worth way more than the college education that often leaves many folks with thousands of dollars of debt.

 

[Son of Butch]

There is a big difference in those that say "I can" or "it can be done", and those that say "I can't" or "it can't be done."

"If you think you can or think you can't ... you're right." - Stewie Griffin

 

[smartin0022]

So here goes nothing. My last response wasn't well received but I'm bored and running out of things I can do under 10 lbs lifting.
I'm a millennial and didn't know it. I was born into farming but I still had to buy my own way in. I started showing cattle at 11. Took my first market steer profit and bought a cow and calf bred back. Dad helped me fund that first steer I had to pay back feed and cost of the steer b4 I was allowed to use any of the money. Then he took me to the FSA office in late 1999 at 12 years old. I got a youth loan for $5,000 bought me 5 registed angus cows 10-11 years old 500 lbs calves at the side and bred back to Toeben bulls under my dad's instructions I had to purchase those type cattle. I sold those 5 registered bulls in 2000 for $1000 a head paying my loan off leaving only interest and a years hay bill I worked all summer tobacco to pay for. The next year I lost a 12-13 year cow and had 4 left. I showed steers throughout making a little bit every summer at the county fair. I had to find my own buyers for the fair so dad drove me around to local business to explain what I was doing and get people to come buy at the auction. Name in the newspaper tax write off and recognition for their business. I kept rolling like that till 17 years old when I graduated high school. 4H, FFA I learned a good deal but looking back now I was still and idiot but at the time you couldn't tell me nothing. I had to go to college cause I had big dreams and no real skillset besides raising cows and some general farm work. Then the long stretch. I knew I wanted to farm so I got a degree in welding technology pipe specialist. I had to use FAFSA loans for school. I worked to pay those off and managed a 600 acre operation for some doctors who had around 160 mommas and a nice cow calf operation. That's where I learned the most about farming and started to realize I didn't know much still don't apparently. Anyways graduated and went out on the rd for 4 years doing pipe work never being home but making alot of money. Missing the cows and farming but knowing I could get back if I busted my butt long enough enough hours I could eventually buy a farm. FSA direct operation loan after 4 years and I had my first 30 acres and house 3 kids and wife in dental hygiene school who I paid her way while working those 4 years on rd.
Got a service truck, traveling maintenance welder job and started flashlight farming with 30 head. Leasing anything that would hold cows every year losing leases to sell outs. Giving up leases to poor production and fence. I started to burn out checking cows all hours of the night, trying to raise a family working 100 hrs a week and farming in headlights. So something has to change.
I then grabbed up 193 acres of pretty nice ground close to my small home place. That's the game changer for me. Now I have enough land to start to build on. Got a pipe job in the distilleries to have more time to farm and do more of what i want in life which is farm. Loads of debt too. But one day it'll all go to my kids and they might not even want it. But they are made to work like it or not. Dad always said he had kids for the free labor he wasn't joking. Most of my machinery is paid for in cash. I paid the cattle off the way dad showed me how at 12 years old and starting rebuilding slow with replacements. I'm 34 now and been on some high highs and some low lows.
Young people can make it if they want to. But it has to be a dream with a goal and alot of sucking hind tit and busting your butt and don't give up or in along the way. That's what worked for me wasn't easy and I might fall flat tomorrow. But it's working for now and I'm doing what I enjoy and making enough to pay the bills. I couldn't do it without a day job the land is an investment IMO. My time is better spent farming than on a couch. Showing cattle got me started. Lots of young folks are interested in farming just don't have the determination to do what's necessary to achieve it. Long winded response from a very bored person who should prolly just erase all that.

 

[simme]

I have a millennial couple that rents hunting rights from me and they would love to farm and would likely be good at it. For their age they have really high income. He's in commercial construction, she's a doctor. They can't afford enough land to be useful.

Of course I don't know the details in this particular situation. But sometimes, there is the issue of priorities that comes into play. Some people have dreams and goals and sacrifice and work and find a way to achieve them. Some people want it all - fancy cars, house, boat, vacations and travel, and "luxuries" that many consider "essentials". Those could interfere with other dreams. Fifty years ago when land was "cheaper", people in general did not have as many vehicles, as nice of houses, take as many trips, cable tv and such "essentials". Nothing wrong with any of those things. But they do figure into priorities and achieving various goals. There is more consumption and spur of the moment spending now than 50 years ago for sure. Look at the cost of education now. Why so high? Because expectations have changed. People expect to live in expensive apartments near school, not in dorms. They expect fancy facilities with research and expensive stadiums and the "experience". The demand for "more" of the experience causes the price to be higher.

A doctor and a hard working person in commercial construction that can't afford enough land to be useful needs to perhaps take an objective look at the overall situation. Maybe move to another area where land is cheaper or set an amount to save each month to build some cash.
I suspect that many people want to run cattle, but also want to set limits on where and how. The demand for rural land in some areas is due to nearby cities with people looking for "Green Acres". In some areas, the land is high value due to row crop value - $12-15,000/acre or more. That price is not due to urban sprawl, but is being paid by farmers to raise corn and beans and such. Cows probably are not going to work on that land. At the same time that some grain farmers say that land price is too high and grain prices are too low. But prime row crop land in Iowa sells for a "high" price. Supply and demand set prices. If no one is buying, prices would decline.
This is not a new issue, but an old one that evolves over time. Work more, work smarter, plan more will help achieve goals. But, most of us have to prioritize and sacrifice to have what we want or need. Most won't have it all.

 

[Atimm693]

If I understood everything I've read in these 8 pages it sounds like y'all have narrowed it down to two problems. The first is young people don't have a good work ethic(or patience) and the second being that maybe land prices really have surpassed ag production profits.

On the first point, is the current generation really that much lazier than previous or does every generation curse the one younger than them? And if we are really that much worse than previous generations who's to blame? Might it be the people complaining about us are to blame. Someone did have to raise us after all. I'll add some personal experience. My grand father calls me about once a week around 8pm to check in. If I am working he exclaims, "Is that all you ever do? Work!" He's 88 and if he was lazy he must have also been very lucky because he put together a nice farming and ranching retirement that has lasted this long and he'll likely leave his kids something worth having.

On the second point, if land really is to high what can be done? I don't think there's enough of us on this board to make any changes to the current markets but I do bet there is someone most of us know that we could help get started. That's all it really takes and it is happening in some places. I've been helped plenty and so has my friend that's running cattle. He just bought him a little land. He got to pay market price for it, but he's had some help in other ways to make the deal happen and get the place ready for cattle.

I've read some studies that say millennials are harder working, or at least as hard working as generations before them.

I don't really think the differences are as large as they're made out to be. Life's a **** sandwich, eat or starve. It hasn't been easy for anyone.

Investment firms buying up housing and land are a big problem to start with. Put the brakes on that crap.

We have talked about this before but most of the younger people I see making it are selling direct or in premium niches. Organic, local, whatever. Grass fed beef, maple and black walnut syrups, forested pork. My take on this is that the middlemen and packers are taking a increased portion of revenue, the middle class is shrinking and the upper class has a lot of disposable money.

I hope this is the way smaller operations are going. Direct to consumer, cut out the packers that want nothing more than to screw the little guy because they have no choice. Seems like there are more and more small slaughter houses opening up around here, and they are booked out for months.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

I do remember thinking I was ready to take on the world, left home with my border collie and a milk cow, left my horse at the ranch. My my, that first winter was an eye opener. My relatives were kind hearted, my one uncle bought butter from me because my Aunt Dana loved fresh butter. If I timed it right, occasionally I could swing by my other Aunt and Uncles' place and get a meal. I think back at their kindness and amused smiles. They were once young too.

 

[acefire]

I have a millennial couple that rents hunting rights from me and they would love to farm and would likely be good at it. For their age they have really high income. He's in commercial construction, she's a doctor. They can't afford enough land to be useful.

Baloney, Really high income, can't afford enough land to be useful. I bet they live high on the hog. Choice is not to spend there money on land.

 

[Muletrack]

Seeing North Dakota native pasture for sale asking a quarter million per quarter. Farmers are just going to keep getting older at that rate. There is no possible way to show a profit to begin ranching on that. Asking doesn't mean "getting." But rich folks in Fargo love to own a piece of the rock. Eventually, of course, the aging process just stops.

 

[Otha]

I keep hearing how you need to own land to make it with cattle. I know a lot of people who started by leasing land. At least one or more in each of the last 8 decades. I hear people saying there is no land available to lease where they live. So why continue to live there?

It may be different in other parts of the country but anywhere I've ever been the "new" people are last in line for lease ground even if they've lived in the area for 10 years.
I do have a little leased where I am at. Seems like it'll take 4 or 5 acres of leased or paid off land to pay the mortgage on one new acre.

 

[shaz]

Baloney, Really high income, can't afford enough land to be useful. I bet they live high on the hog. Choice is not to spend there money on land.

Well.....there is some truth in that.

 

[Otha]

After 2 more pages of information it seems we've found a 3rd point that most agree on. Anyone can start into the cattle business as long as they work a good town job and put all money not needed for survival towards the ranching operation. So, let's say someone wants to own cattle bad enough to do that. They work in town and begin their ranching on the side. How long is someone required to take no vacations, spend no money on hobbies and spend little time with their families? Or is owning cattle not feasible for people that only want to work 60 or 70 hours a week?
I just wonder if it's going to be that hard for that long how many cattle will there be in this country in 25 years. Or will they all be owned by large corporate ranches?

 

[dave_shelby]

Edited

 

[callmefence]

After 2 more pages of information it seems we've found a 3rd point that most agree on. Anyone can start into the cattle business as long as they work a good town job and put all money not needed for survival towards the ranching operation. So, let's say someone wants to own cattle bad enough to do that. They work in town and begin their ranching on the side. How long is someone required to take no vacations, spend no money on hobbies and spend little time with their families? Or is owning cattle not feasible for people that only want to work 60 or 70 hours a week?
I just wonder if it's going to be that hard for that long how many cattle will there be in this country in 25 years. Or will they all be owned by large corporate ranches?

Opening any business is a commitment.
Financial and personal commitment.

 

[dave_shelby]

I do remember thinking I was ready to take on the world, left home with my border collie and a milk cow, left my horse at the ranch. My my, that first winter was an eye opener.

Id like to hear more of that story.

Look at the cost of education now. Why so high? Because expectations have changed.

Agreed, American life has become quite encumbered by excesses. We are quite good at marketing, are comfortable supporting our desires on credit. College, in your example, is supposed to be an investment in your future to prepare the young for a career. It has far outstripped its utility. Many of the grads have neither skills nor ability to think. (Side note - they are also part of the "elite overproduction" that Peter Turchin has long warned about as it creates political instability.)

 

[simme]

After 2 more pages of information it seems we've found a 3rd point that most agree on. Anyone can start into the cattle business as long as they work a good town job and put all money not needed for survival towards the ranching operation. So, let's say someone wants to own cattle bad enough to do that. They work in town and begin their ranching on the side. How long is someone required to take no vacations, spend no money on hobbies and spend little time with their families? Or is owning cattle not feasible for people that only want to work 60 or 70 hours a week?
I just wonder if it's going to be that hard for that long how many cattle will there be in this country in 25 years. Or will they all be owned by large corporate ranches?

I don't think this is unique to cattle. I believe anyone who has started their own business experiences much of the same. A small business may be open 8 to 5. But those are the hours for the customers. The working hours for the business owner are much more than that. May be some kind of repair business, a retail business, a service business, pumping septic tanks, plumber, electrician, farm supply, and any other kind. There are always emergencies - customer emergencies, business emergencies, delivery emergencies, employee emergencies (a big one there). Point is that owning a business is not for everyone. Working for a company with a steady check and somewhat steady hours will be best for a lot of people. Less stressful for many. Just got to put up with working for someone else.

 

[Caustic Burno]

After 2 more pages of information it seems we've found a 3rd point that most agree on. Anyone can start into the cattle business as long as they work a good town job and put all money not needed for survival towards the ranching operation. So, let's say someone wants to own cattle bad enough to do that. They work in town and begin their ranching on the side. How long is someone required to take no vacations, spend no money on hobbies and spend little time with their families? Or is owning cattle not feasible for people that only want to work 60 or 70 hours a week?
I just wonder if it's going to be that hard for that long how many cattle will there be in this country in 25 years. Or will they all be owned by large corporate ranches?

It's called welfare cattle !
Your supplementing rib-eye on someone else's table.

 

[Lucky]

Most 30 year olds that are worth a flip don't have either of those inflated things if they're talking about a future, hell, most don't have either regardless. Nobody said anything about $1,200/acre land. Hyperbole and reductionism flatters nobody.

I honestly don't understand where your coming from on all of this. Do you think we should raise or lower minimum wage? Should those of us that own land sell to young people for far less than market value? Should govt. get involved and make it easier to profit in the ag business? I'm not following anything you say. I'll give you my story and maybe you'll understand why I say tough titty you gotta make your own way.

For the last 25 yrs I've had a pretty good paying job for dummy that barely made it through high school. I spent about 10 yrs goofing off and having fun, then about 15 yrs ago decided to make a go of something. We bought a small business (barely scraped together the down payment) and have had ups and downs with it. 1 year after we bought the business I made a deal in the parking lot to buy 90 acres and 20 cows. Once again I didn't have the money but made it work. A couple years later I leased 200 acres and bought 50 more cows. 2 years after that I bought 210 acres from my neighbor and let the lease go. A few more years went by and I bought another place next to me. Again a few years went by and I bought what is the final place next to me that I wanted. I did this while working 12 hr rotating shifts and 500-800 hrs unwanted OT at the regular job and helping out at the business. Every place I bought was run down and needed clearing, new fences, and pasture maintenance. I also bought them all at market value or a touch over. We had no help from anyone, had to buy everything I've ever used. Every time I bought a place it was a struggle to come up with the down payment and the money to get it into production. If I had a nickel for everytime I heard I'd never make it work I'd have a heck of a nickel pile. Today I measured out 2,600' of cross fence, once it's done that'll make around 20,000' of new fence I've built myself with very little help. You can get on here and cry about this and that or how it's unfare that things are overpriced or you can get to work figuring a way to make it work for you.

Here's a tip for you....cattle are profitable so make sure you do things the right way.

Good luck and never ask anyone for anything...

 

[greybeard]

So here goes nothing. My last response wasn't well received but I'm bored and running out of things I can do under 10 lbs lifting.
I'm a millennial and didn't know it. I was born into farming but I still had to buy my own way in. I started showing cattle at 11. Took my first market steer profit and bought a cow and calf bred back. Dad helped me fund that first steer I had to pay back feed and cost of the steer b4 I was allowed to use any of the money. Then he took me to the FSA office in late 1999 at 12 years old. I got a youth loan for $5,000 bought me 5 registed angus cows 10-11 years old 500 lbs calves at the side and bred back to Toeben bulls under my dad's instructions I had to purchase those type cattle. I sold those 5 registered bulls in 2000 for $1000 a head paying my loan off leaving only interest and a years hay bill I worked all summer tobacco to pay for. The next year I lost a 12-13 year cow and had 4 left. I showed steers throughout making a little bit every summer at the county fair. I had to find my own buyers for the fair so dad drove me around to local business to explain what I was doing and get people to come buy at the auction. Name in the newspaper tax write off and recognition for their business. I kept rolling like that till 17 years old when I graduated high school. 4H, FFA I learned a good deal but looking back now I was still and idiot but at the time you couldn't tell me nothing. I had to go to college cause I had big dreams and no real skillset besides raising cows and some general farm work. Then the long stretch. I knew I wanted to farm so I got a degree in welding technology pipe specialist. I had to use FAFSA loans for school. I worked to pay those off and managed a 600 acre operation for some doctors who had around 160 mommas and a nice cow calf operation. That's where I learned the most about farming and started to realize I didn't know much still don't apparently. Anyways graduated and went out on the rd for 4 years doing pipe work never being home but making alot of money. Missing the cows and farming but knowing I could get back if I busted my butt long enough enough hours I could eventually buy a farm. FSA direct operation loan after 4 years and I had my first 30 acres and house 3 kids and wife in dental hygiene school who I paid her way while working those 4 years on rd.
Got a service truck, traveling maintenance welder job and started flashlight farming with 30 head. Leasing anything that would hold cows every year losing leases to sell outs. Giving up leases to poor production and fence. I started to burn out checking cows all hours of the night, trying to raise a family working 100 hrs a week and farming in headlights. So something has to change.
I then grabbed up 193 acres of pretty nice ground close to my small home place. That's the game changer for me. Now I have enough land to start to build on. Got a pipe job in the distilleries to have more time to farm and do more of what i want in life which is farm. Loads of debt too. But one day it'll all go to my kids and they might not even want it. But they are made to work like it or not. Dad always said he had kids for the free labor he wasn't joking. Most of my machinery is paid for in cash. I paid the cattle off the way dad showed me how at 12 years old and starting rebuilding slow with replacements. I'm 34 now and been on some high highs and some low lows.
Young people can make it if they want to. But it has to be a dream with a goal and alot of sucking hind tit and busting your butt and don't give up or in along the way. That's what worked for me wasn't easy and I might fall flat tomorrow. But it's working for now and I'm doing what I enjoy and making enough to pay the bills. I couldn't do it without a day job the land is an investment IMO. My time is better spent farming than on a couch. Showing cattle got me started. Lots of young folks are interested in farming just don't have the determination to do what's necessary to achieve it. Long winded response from a very bored person who should prolly just erase all that.

Too late.

 

[Heronfish]

I honestly don't understand where your coming from on all of this. Do you think we should raise or lower minimum wage? Should those of us that own land sell to young people for far less than market value? Should govt. get involved and make it easier to profit in the ag business? I'm not following anything you say. I'll give you my story and maybe you'll understand why I say tough titty you gotta make your own way.

For the last 25 yrs I've had a pretty good paying job for dummy that barely made it through high school. I spent about 10 yrs goofing off and having fun, then about 15 yrs ago decided to make a go of something. We bought a small business (barely scraped together the down payment) and have had ups and downs with it. 1 year after we bought the business a made a deal in the parking lot to buy 90 acres and 20 cows. Once again I didn't have the money but made it work. A couple years later I leased 200 acres and bought 50 more cows. 2 years after that I bought 210 acres from my neighbor and let the lease go. A few more years went by and I bought another place next to me. Again a few years went by and I bought what is the final place next to me that I wanted. I did this while working 12 hr rotating shifts and 500-800 hrs unwanted OT at the regular job and helping out at the business. Every place I bought was run down needed clearing, new fences, and pasture maintenance. I also bought them all at market value or a touch over. We had no help from anyone, had to buy everything I've ever used. Every time I bought a place it was a struggle to come up with the down payment and the money to get it into production. If I had a nickel for everytime I heard I'd never make it work I'd have a heck of a nickel pile. Today I measured out 2,600' of cross fence, once it's done that'll make around 20,000' of new fence I've built myself with very little help. You can get on here and cry about this and that or how it's unfare that things are overpriced or you can get to work figuring a way to make it work for you.

Here's a tip for you....cattle are profitable so make sure you do things the right way.

Good luck and never ask anyone for anything...

All that said , are you making any money on the cows? Or is your other gig just subsidizing the cattle hobby?

 

[Lucky]

All that said , are you making any money on the cows? Or is your other gig just subsidizing the cattle hobby?

The cows always make money, I couldn't afford to operate if they didn't. The first money they made went mostly to paying for themselves...that's the hard part that most people don't understand. I treat the cattle like any other business. Well sorta I guess....I probably wouldn't work so hard to make so little if I didn't really enjoy it.