Black Herefords

[Tommy Ruyle]

So you are saying I did not see Beefmasters at the Beefmaster sale I went to. Just a bunch of Hereford, Shorthorn and Brahman cross cattle. See my ?. Why is one mans cross a breed and anothers just a cross?

The problem occurs when "HEREFORD" is used. If they are going to "create" a new breed , they need a completely new name, i.e. ANGFORD, HEREGUS,...

 

[preston39]

SSR...,
You are correct to wonder why some become defensive of the breed intrusion. I also do not no why.

We concentrate on angus..someone said what reaction would there be if a...WHITE ANGUS..was introduced? some would react the same way. I would say... "bring it on".....there is plenty of room. The concept is not far fetched. There are concentrations of an angus charolais x already.

A good cattleman will always look for a better animal to improve the bottom line. Our commercial herd has 22 black white face mixed animals. Our plan is to increase that number.Their end product is difficult to beat in a commercial evironment along with our hereford limousin mixed group. Both are excellent all around producers. Thats where we make our best dollar.

The bottom line is that the feed lots are focusing on the better carcass regardless of the breed intrusions because there is not enough angus..the consumer perceived best... to meet the demand.

 

[cypressfarms]

SSR...,
You are correct to wonder why some become defensive of the breed intrusion. I also do not no why.

A good cattleman will always look for a better animal to improve the bottom line. Our commercial herd has 22 black white face mixed animals.

The bottom line is that the feed lots are focusing on the better carcass regardless of the breed intrusions because there is not enough angus..the consumer perceived best... to meet the demand.

1. Defensive because a black hereford is not a "true" breed. To say that it is denegrates the long hard work done by many people that did create breeds such as the beefmaster, santa gert, gray murries, etc. By definition a hereford is red. To make a black hereford, to me, seems a contradiction.

2. A black baldy is indeed a coveted cow among commercial cattlemen(women). With commercial it isn't essential that you have straight breeds, in fact, this is contrary to the commercial man's best interest. Black baldies crossed back with another type of bull (insert bull here) would normally give much better offspring to sell.

3. Bottom line. Better carcass. Increase angus % while adding another breed(s) to increase growth. Why would this animal be a new breed? It would be a hybrid made to increase your bottom line, putting you in the "black" instead of "red" Pun intended.

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

Okay, I'll put in my two cents. First a Black Hereford is not the same as a black baldy. A Black Hereford is not a single cross but a series of crosses crossing back to Hereford bloodlines while still maintaining the black hide color. Although the point is well taken that the primary reason for this is as a marketing tool to possibly produce black baldies off of red cows. The quality is probably not there. Although I do question what the big to do is about. Most breeds of cattle now come in black. They even have gotten a line of Black Charolais that are in huge demand. Again I guess I look at it as a tool. If I had a mixed bag of black and red commercial cows and I wanted to get them to look a bit more consistent for marketing purposes, a homozygous black, white face bull might be just the ticket for that. JMHO.

 

[dun]

Okay, I'll put in my two cents. First a Black Hereford is not the same as a black baldy. A Black Hereford is not a single cross but a series of crosses crossing back to Hereford bloodlines while still maintaining the black hide color. Although the point is well taken that the primary reason for this is as a marketing tool to possibly produce black baldies off of red cows. The quality is probably not there. Although I do question what the big to do is about. Most breeds of cattle now come in black. They even have gotten a line of Black Charolais that are in huge demand. Again I guess I look at it as a tool. If I had a mixed bag of black and red commercial cows and I wanted to get them to look a bit more consistent for marketing purposes, a homozygous black, white face bull might be just the ticket for that. JMHO.

Most of the breed associations allow "breeding up", so color isn;t an issue or even in the breed description.

dun

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

Yeah, this is kind of off topic but I have seen a few red charolais I was like what the heck? When I saw em.

Those red factor Charolais are quite common up here. Seems the feedlots are looking for dark red and black cattle and they pay a bit more for those so that's what guys are producing.

 

[JHH]

Okay, I'll put in my two cents. First a Black Hereford is not the same as a black baldy. A Black Hereford is not a single cross but a series of crosses crossing back to Hereford bloodlines while still maintaining the black hide color.

That is not right exactly. I was informed that if I used a (BLACKHEREFORD BULL) on my Registered Horned herfs that ANY FEMALE regardless of color could be registered with the black hereford ass.The same is not true for bulls they have to be black. That would make it a first cross kind of wouldnt it?And if you keep breeding to Inferior bulls you get junk most of the time.I was kind of interested in them at first until I started asking some questions. I dont think there are alot of breeders out there trying to improve the BLACKHEREFORDS. They just want numbers right now I think. JHH

 

[Brandonm2]

"A black baldy is indeed a coveted cow among commercial cattlemen(women). With commercial it isn't essential that you have straight breeds, in fact, this is contrary to the commercial man's best interest. Black baldies crossed back with another type of bull (insert bull here) would normally give much better offspring to sell."

This is part of their reason for creating this new "breed". A lot of commercial cattlemen use Hereford and Angus in a two breed rotational crossbreeding system. The F1 Hereford x Angus are excellent cows; BUT if you come back with a Hereford bull on that cross cow, half of your calves will be reds, which in some barns bring less than their black baldie appearing siblings even though both are 75Herf:25Ang and you will continue to get SOME red calves every time a Herf bull is used in such a rotation. Black Herefords who are homozygous for the black color gene would eliminate those red calves altogether in a crossbreeding rotation with Angus. Dittoe with a rotation with Brangus, black Simmentals, black Limousins, black Gelbviehs, Senegus, black Beefmasters, Chi-angus, etc

IF only the best Hereford and Angus genetics were used in this and the breeders had deep enough pockets to castrate 75% of the calves for structure, performance, etc and the patience to wait for quantity and quality before selling seedstock then I would be less harsh on them; but most of the Black Herefords I have seen have been very average or even mediocre baldies. I am not yet convinced that the breeders currently multiplying "Black Herefords" know what they are doing or are really looking out for the longterm best interests of their breed.

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

Okay, I'll put in my two cents. First a Black Hereford is not the same as a black baldy. A Black Hereford is not a single cross but a series of crosses crossing back to Hereford bloodlines while still maintaining the black hide color.

That is not right exactly. I was informed that if I used a (BLACKHEREFORD BULL) on my Registered Horned herfs that ANY FEMALE regardless of color could be registered with the black hereford ass.The same is not true for bulls they have to be black. That would make it a first cross kind of wouldnt it?And if you keep breeding to Inferior bulls you get junk most of the time.I was kind of interested in them at first until I started asking some questions. I dont think there are alot of breeders out there trying to improve the BLACKHEREFORDS. They just want numbers right now I think. JHH

Of course if you bred a homozygous black bull to your red hereford cows, all the calves would be black, right? But really , what would be the point of having a hetrozygous Black Hereford bull? You could do at least as well with a Black Baldy and probably have more heterosis as well as better genetics.

 

[JHH]

Okay, I'll put in my two cents. First a Black Hereford is not the same as a black baldy. A Black Hereford is not a single cross but a series of crosses crossing back to Hereford bloodlines while still maintaining the black hide color.

That is not right exactly. I was informed that if I used a (BLACKHEREFORD BULL) on my Registered Horned herfs that ANY FEMALE regardless of color could be registered with the black hereford ass.The same is not true for bulls they have to be black. That would make it a first cross kind of wouldnt it?And if you keep breeding to Inferior bulls you get junk most of the time.I was kind of interested in them at first until I started asking some questions. I dont think there are alot of breeders out there trying to improve the BLACKHEREFORDS. They just want numbers right now I think. JHH

Of course if you bred a homozygous black bull to your red hereford cows, all the calves would be black, right? But really , what would be the point of having a hetrozygous Black Hereford bull? You could do at least as well with a Black Baldy and probably have more heterosis as well as better genetics.

I didnt think that the blackhereford people had a Homozygous black bull YET. Therefor the red calves just like you said. Mayby they have one now I havent keept up with them.

And next year at the local county fair Jeff Shrek (sp) may be showing some of his( BLACK HEREFORDS) Do you show as crossbred or hereford? JHH

 

[purecountry]

Brandonm2, I respect your posts and your knowledge, but I have got to ask...if they want a homozygous black bull on their F1 Hereford X Angus cows, so they get a consistently black calf crop, WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH A BLACK ANGUS BULL, BLACK GALLOWAY BULL, ETC.??? WHY THE NEED FOR RECOGNITION AS YOUR OWN "BREED"?

To me, it's just ridiculous. Cross however you want to serve your purpose, but why must it be called a breed? I agree with all of your reasoning for increased profits and consistency, just not with THEIR reasoning of calling it a breed.

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

Brandonm2, I respect your posts and your knowledge, but I have got to ask...if they want a homozygous black bull on their F1 Hereford X Angus cows, so they get a consistently black calf crop, WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH A BLACK ANGUS BULL, BLACK GALLOWAY BULL, ETC.??? WHY THE NEED FOR RECOGNITION AS YOUR OWN "BREED"?

To me, it's just ridiculous. Cross however you want to serve your purpose, but why must it be called a breed? I agree with all of your reasoning for increased profits and consistency, just not with THEIR reasoning of calling it a breed.

If you do that, alot of them will come out brockle faced, which means they no longer look like an F1 cross. Remember this is a marketing tool.

 

[Brandonm2]

They are creating a breed that is Black but is 87% or more Hereford. Basically what they are saying is that they like everything about Hereford except the red color. Most American Simmental breeders have rejected their historical color patterns in favor of a solid black or black whiteface look.
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmental_ss_main.asp So have many American Limousin, Gelbvieh, Beefmaster, Chianina, etc breeders. I don't see what is all that different about what these Herf guys are doing compared to what many whole breeds have done. 40 years ago there were few, if any "purebred" Limousin or Simmentals in the world that were Black. Now there are hundreds of thousands of them. We all have the RIGHT to go buy a bunch of cows somewhere and breed them to produce something more or less consistent and then call it a "breed".

 

[purecountry]

I guess we have the right, but I still don't agree with it. I didn't like it when Limos, Charolais, Simmental, Salers, Maines, Gelbviehs and everyone else did it either. Just like I didn't like it when Black Angus breeders injected Chianina, Maine, and whatever else, all the while wearing the flag of a purist and calling them Angus. If it's crossed, just say so. Don't call it what it ain't.

 

[Campground Cattle]

As I have stated before we do not need or want Angus genetics in every breed of cattle. If you can't compete join the Angus people dang fine cattle and folks. They Dairy industry genetics are already screwed up just from the same type mentality.
Cattlemen that want to turn a breed black are poor managers in my book that lack the skills to improve thier breed to compete with the Angus marketing.
There is no benifit to turning a Hereford Black which you can't anyway.
Some composite breeds were developed for niches like the Brangus, Braford,Gert's and Beefmaster which makes perfect sense. Regions of the country needed to improve on heat, insect tolerance and etc.
I prefer swimming in clean clear water not wadding in the septic tank of mongrel breeds. If I wanted to raise Angus I would join La4, Frankie,Scotty and some others would be great company and raise Angus(the black ones).
I will use the word Owners versus Cattleman that turn breeds black just to try in get in on the Angus market should be kicked out of whatever cattle association they belong to.
IMO these are the breeders that have ruined fine cattle by being poor managers.
I raise Herefords if it gets to the point I can not compete with Angus I will never disgrace the Hereford breed,nor should anyone else try to cover up thier poor management by turning hair black. I will switch or quit.

Nuff Said

 

[Brandonm2]

I guess we have the right, but I still don't agree with it. I didn't like it when Limos, Charolais, Simmental, Salers, Maines, Gelbviehs and everyone else did it either. Just like I didn't like it when Black Angus breeders injected Chianina, Maine, and whatever else, all the while wearing the flag of a purist and calling them Angus. If it's crossed, just say so. Don't call it what it ain't.

At least with "Black Herefords" the Angus is usually added ABOVE the table rather than falsifying the pedigrees like other breeds have done.

 

[Campground Cattle]

I want to mention is that with the other composites (brangus, brafords, etc), they didn't infringe on a previous breed name.

 

[la4angus]

Most of the breed associations allow "breeding up", so color isn;t an issue or even in the breed description.

dun

But Herefords doesn't.

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

As I have stated before we do not need or want Angus genetics in every breed of cattle. If you can't compete join the Angus people dang fine cattle and folks. They Dairy industry genetics are already screwed up just from the same type mentality.
Cattlemen that want to turn a breed black are poor managers in my book that lack the skills to improve thier breed to compete with the Angus marketing.
There is no benifit to turning a Hereford Black which you can't anyway.
Some composite breeds were developed for niches like the Brangus, Braford,Gert's and Beefmaster which makes perfect sense. Regions of the country needed to improve on heat, insect tolerance and etc.
I prefer swimming in clean clear water not wadding in the septic tank of mongrel breeds. If I wanted to raise Angus I would join La4, Frankie,Scotty and some others would be great company and raise Angus(the black ones).
I will use the word Owners versus Cattleman that turn breeds black just to try in get in on the Angus market should be kicked out of whatever cattle association they belong to.
IMO these are the breeders that have ruined fine cattle by being poor managers.
I raise Herefords if it gets to the point I can not compete with Angus I will never disgrace the Hereford breed,nor should anyone else try to cover up thier poor management by turning hair black. I will switch or quit.

Nuff Said

I had always thought of myself more as a commercial cattleman than 'wading in the septic tank of mongrel breeds.'
You do have a way with words, my friend. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[la4angus]

If I wanted to raise Angus I would join La4, Frankie,Scotty and some others would be great company and raise Angus(the black ones).

Nothing wrong with the Red Angus either. They are as pure as the Blacks, and have been around as long as the Black Angus.