Black Charolais

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MikeC

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3MR":3ltws7cr said:
I know you cant breed up to Angus

You might tell this to Dr. Harlan Ritchie:

"It's also important to note that during a period of type change in the late 1960s and early '70s from overly small, fat cattle to growthier, leaner types, there was some unethical infusion of Holstein and Brown Swiss blood into the Angus breed"
 

Alice

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MikeC":17cgnsua said:
Alice":17cgnsua said:
Black charolais, huh? Does that rank right up there with "black herefords?"

I'm really not trying to start something here, truly I'm not...but, seems to me if the argument against "black herefords" is that "hereford" is synonymous with the color red, then that same argument could be applied to "charolais" being synonymous with the color white.

Obviously I've missed something here, correct?

Alice

If Hereford's are synonymous with being red, are Angus synonymous with being black?
If so, where do Red Angus fit?

After all, they are from the same gene pool.

I always thought they were, but then I was raised on a dairy with nothing but holsteins, everynow and then a jersey, and a black angus bull for first timers...what the heck do I know?

Alice
 

MikeC

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Alice":rtj5tx33 said:
MikeC":rtj5tx33 said:
Alice":rtj5tx33 said:
Black charolais, huh? Does that rank right up there with "black herefords?"

I'm really not trying to start something here, truly I'm not...but, seems to me if the argument against "black herefords" is that "hereford" is synonymous with the color red, then that same argument could be applied to "charolais" being synonymous with the color white.

Obviously I've missed something here, correct?

Alice

If Hereford's are synonymous with being red, are Angus synonymous with being black?
If so, where do Red Angus fit?

After all, they are from the same gene pool.

I always thought they were, but then I was raised on a dairy with nothing but holsteins, everynow and then a jersey, and a black angus bull for first timers...what the heck do I know?

Alice

I guess it's a matter of our "Subliminal Perception". :lol:
 

3MR

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MikeC":1j2elkuh said:
3MR":1j2elkuh said:
I know you cant breed up to Angus

You might tell this to Dr. Harlan Ritchie:

"It's also important to note that during a period of type change in the late 1960s and early '70s from overly small, fat cattle to growthier, leaner types, there was some unethical infusion of Holstein and Brown Swiss blood into the Angus breed"

My point was only that you have to have two reg animals to produce a reg animal. Hence, you cant breed up. Regardless of what might have happened in the past, and I dare say happened in many if not all breeds; Angus are black and without an infusion of another breed will remain black.

Im not sure what this has to do with Dr Ritchie. AAA decides it and I dont forsee it changing.
 

MikeC

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My point was only that you have to have two reg animals to produce a reg animal.

Not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. If Dr. Ritchie takes a registered Brown Swiss and breeds it to a registered Angus, the resulting animal is a registered Angus with the AAA? :lol:
 

edde_1

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In sweden we only got the original colors of the breedes, if not the won´t be registered.
Exept for angus, there are some red, but i dont think they are registered. But they are wery expensive, due to the "new" color.
 

C HOLLAND

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Why can't people just have both, if you want angus or charolais, then do like I did and buy both. All the breeds have faults, and the black hides doesn't hide it either.

I must admit, so far I like the chars much better and I cant wait to see my calves from my chars that were bred to my angus bull. I have been to several sales lately and the cross replacement heifers were some of the highest selling.


But I am just a Part Time Hobby type as CB likes to call us.
 

texbulldog

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Now why don't you all jump on this person for the same things you jumped all over my black herefords. The justification of your answers will be interesting.
 

certherfbeef

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texbulldog":xiivw0do said:
Now why don't you all jump on this person for the same things you jumped all over my black herefords. The justification of your answers will be interesting.

Because the char breed already breeds up to pure. Herefords do not

Sooner you realize that the better.
 

Alice

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texbulldog":t9a76tmo said:
Now why don't you all jump on this person for the same things you jumped all over my black herefords. The justification of your answers will be interesting.

I don't know enough about "breeding up" to speak intelligently about pure, impure, what the heck ever. But I am gonna say, your black and white calves and cows are some of the prettiest I've ever seen...I don't care what they're called.

AND, if it weren't dead bang in the middle of the hottest summer I can remember, I'd have me one, or more, of those animals.

Alice
 
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Workinonit Farm

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Thank you to all who have replied with answers. Especially MikeC's detailed explanation.

dun, I suppose if one bred enough of the gray looking smokeys they'd get a black one.

I personally have never seen a black Charolais. I've heard them mentioned, and read blips here and there on these boards. I've seen many of the smokey crosses and many whites, but never a black. Some of the finest looking Charolais I've seen were at the Kluge seedstock dispersal sale somewhere back in 1999 or 2000. Several cows (donor cows) sold for $24,000. Anyhow, several had scurs, but all were well muscled nice looking animals. I suppose they had alot of French blood in them?

Anyhow, when I think of Charolais, I think of white cattle, Simmental I still think of as red/yellow and white and so on down the line.

Thanks again.

Katherine
 
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Workinonit Farm

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texbulldog":1y5eujr1 said:
Now why don't you all jump on this person for the same things you jumped all over my black herefords. The justification of your answers will be interesting.

Since I am the one who posted the original question, its only right that I respond to your post.

First of all, I am not the one calling them black Charolais. In fact, I don't know that anyone calls them black Charolais except in the case of color description and not breed name. If I am mistaken I would certainly hope that I would be corrected.

Second of all, the question was regarding "how" did a Charolais become black while still remaining pure?" If I recall correctly, they became black by infusing other breeds then breeding back up to Charolais, thus they really are not pure in the sense that I mean by "pure".

Now, I have seen posts on these forums regarding Herefords with the black-in-place-of-red color patterns, and questions being asked how this came to be and I believe there must have been a black Angus or black something bred to a Hereford somewhere along the line to obtain the black-in-place-of-red color pattern on the Hereford. Wuth enough of these infused animals being bred to one another in order for them to breed true to that pattern......in black. If I am wrong, please correct me and tell me how the Hereford became black-in-place-of-red while still remaining "pure"?

Thankyou in advance.

Katherine
 

VanC

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Workinonit Farm":36hfal6e said:
Now, I have seen posts on these forums regarding Herefords with the black-in-place-of-red color patterns, and questions being asked how this came to be and I believe there must have been a black Angus or black something bred to a Hereford somewhere along the line to obtain the black-in-place-of-red color pattern on the Hereford. Wuth enough of these infused animals being bred to one another in order for them to breed true to that pattern......in black. If I am wrong, please correct me and tell me how the Hereford became black-in-place-of-red while still remaining "pure"?

Thankyou in advance.

Katherine

You are correct. The only way Herefords, or any other "red" breed, can become black is to introduce another breed, usually Angus. Red always breeds true. There are no "black genes" lurking in a red animal the same way that "red genes" might lurk in a black one.

Some breeds (Gelbvieh, Limos, Simmies, Salers, Maines, etc.) allow this. Herefords do not. Therefore if an animal is 99.99% Hereford, but has a black hide, you know it's not pure. That is why the AHA refuses to register them.
 

MikeC

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Second of all, the question was regarding "how" did a Charolais become black while still remaining pure?" If I recall correctly, they became black by infusing other breeds then breeding back up to Charolais, thus they really are not pure in the sense that I mean by "pure".

Katherine, There are no entirely "Pure Breeds" of cattle. They have all been bred up from other breeds.

It just depends how far you want to go back in time..........
 

polledbull

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I think it sad that every breed has let the market force them to breed thier cattle black. It wasnt enough that in most cases the colored cattle were already superior. There is no advantage in performance by just being black hided , infact usually you have a less performing breed when you breed them just to get them black. It is also sad that the buyers wont tell the whole story , they made us think that they only wanted black cattle ,now you have alot of calves out there that are straight breed "BLACK" that will hardly ever reach a decent weaning weight. but " Hey ,they are BLACK, that makes them better ".I see alot of colored cattle in feedlots . All cattle dont have to be black ,and dont ever think they do. They do however need to be good. regardless of color.
Just my very outspoken opinion
 

Brandonm2

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If the local bull buyers want black polled bulls, I can't fault a breeder for giving them what they want. I don't think anybody thinks that some paternal growth and performance was not lost during the switchover.
 

3MR

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MikeC":17rxw2s7 said:
My point was only that you have to have two reg animals to produce a reg animal.

Not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. If Dr. Ritchie takes a registered Brown Swiss and breeds it to a registered Angus, the resulting animal is a registered Angus with the AAA? :lol:

No, Im saying you would have to have two registered Agnus parents to produce reg Angus offspring.

Please enlightne me on the Dr Ritchie theme you keep referring to. I cant find anythng in reference to him and breeding up registered Angus stock.
 

3MR

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Hill Creek Farm":hntliita said:
Before long, every breed will be black. Thats to bad. Take care. :(

I doubt that, but there has been a strong influx in black hided animals in certain breeds.
 
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