Black Baldies

[Pineland]

In case you are bored.

http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/Beef%20Ca ... ulty-1.pdf

To summarize.

Breed of Dam
Breed of dam effects on dystocia and birth weight do not follow a consistent pattern, except for the Zebu-influenced females. As the percentage of Zebu breeding increases in the dam, the birth weight and dystocia decline. Birthing assistance for F1 Brahman dams exhibit assistant rates of 1-2 percent.

Uterine Environment
Researchers at Marc reported that fetal growth during the last 20 percent of gestation is dramatically lower in Brahman than in Charolais cows, which explain the lower birth weights of calves from Brahman-influenced dams, as noted above. They provided evidence which suggested that this difference is due to the differences in uterine blood flow and the function of the utero-placental tissues. Research at Miles City has likewise show that diverse breeds of dams differ greatly in the growth rate of the fetuses they are carrying.

 

[Arkieman]

I'd go herford cows with homozygous black Angus bull. I currently run angus (black) cows with a herf bull. Every year I get a few red calves mixed in. In my neck of the woods, it would be cheaper buying herf cows than black cows also. If I had it to do over again.....

 

[Massey135]

I can read what the powerpoint says :roll: .. these just aren't the result ive personally had nor is it the results of many. Brahman bulls have long been used as heifer bulls- not because they have huge calves. Dairies used brahman bulls on heifers for years. So did all the fullblood continental breeders in the day. I just got off the phone with my grandpa who i've mentioned ran a cpl hundred hd of herefords in Yantis, TX where lake fork is now. After the poor growth and hard calving genetics of the herefords in the mid 60's and prior to the importation of the fullblood chars, he used Brahman bulls over all his cows. I told him what this convo was about and he just said " well all I know is they (the f1 calves) sure weren't as big as the herford sired calves and I dang sure didn't have the calving problems I had had." ( LIttle did he know those fullblood chars he was waiting on in quarantine would trainwreck his cattle operation.)

Lets hear some first hand results: who has put brahma bulls over english cows and had more calving difficulties than they did prior?

 

[backhoeboogie]

Massey, Its always been the opposite.

My Grandaddy died in '83. (I can't call him nor can I call my Dad who is also deceased) Grandaddy ran purebred Brahman bulls my entire childhood. Calving ease and growth of calves was awesome.

I am not sure if you have a typo in your posts or if you are debating yourself in this thread. Don't really care for that matter. Just know brimmer calving ease with smooth shoulders and acceptable BW has always been a plus in everything I have been around. Mortality is wonderful.

If those English were 10 pounds heavier, it kept them from getting left so far behind because at market time, we all know the F1 was significantly larger. Course in those days, common angus cows were around 750 lbs? I remember them as tiny.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I'd go herford cows with homozygous black Angus bull. I currently run angus (black) cows with a herf bull. Every year I get a few red calves mixed in. In my neck of the woods, it would be cheaper buying herf cows than black cows also. If I had it to do over again.....

That is what I am doing Angus over registered Herf's to get the F-1. Sold all my Herf bull's when I started destocking because medical reason's and the drought. I have the option to go back if I want. Doubt it do to health reason's. My phone hasn't stopped ringing looking for Hereford bulls and I have refered several member's on the board to other great breeder's and they are out or almost out. Can't justify staying in a registered operation for the fee's where I am today for one or two herd bull quality calves a year. Before I cut back I could produce 7 or 8 a year more than paid for the trouble.
Red cow's are cheaper and you have options you don't with black cow's. You have to fill your customer's need's and want's. Here they want and F-1 female for terminal operations that is #1 Herf/Brimmer #2 Herf/ Brangus all the other'srate about equal, Angus/Brimmer, Herf/ Char or Angus/Herf. Running Angus over herf produce's a top quality female and the steer calve's ring the bell.

 

[Massey135]

Massey, Its always been the opposite.

My Grandaddy died in '83. (I can't call him nor can I call my Dad who is also deceased) Grandaddy ran purebred Brahman bulls my entire childhood. Calving ease and growth of calves was awesome.

I am not sure if you have a typo in your posts or if you are debating yourself in this thread. Don't really care for that matter. Just know brimmer calving ease with smooth shoulders and acceptable BW has always been a plus in everything I have been around. Mortality is wonderful.

If those English were 10 pounds heavier, it kept them from getting left so far behind because at market time, we all know the F1 was significantly larger. Course in those days, common angus cows were around 750 lbs? I remember them as tiny.

I agree completely with you. I don't see any typos in what I wrote. maybe some clarification. I meant the f1s were't as big at birth as the purebred herefords he had been having. They weaned 100lbs bigger though..

 

[bigrob]

I can read what the powerpoint says :roll: .. these just aren't the result ive personally had nor is it the results of many. Brahman bulls have long been used as heifer bulls- not because they have huge calves. Dairies used brahman bulls on heifers for years. So did all the fullblood continental breeders in the day. I just got off the phone with my grandpa who i've mentioned ran a cpl hundred hd of herefords in Yantis, TX where lake fork is now. After the poor growth and hard calving genetics of the herefords in the mid 60's and prior to the importation of the fullblood chars, he used Brahman bulls over all his cows. I told him what this convo was about and he just said " well all I know is they (the f1 calves) sure weren't as big as the herford sired calves and I dang sure didn't have the calving problems I had had." ( LIttle did he know those fullblood chars he was waiting on in quarantine would trainwreck his cattle operation.)

Lets hear some first hand results: who has put brahma bulls over english cows and had more calving difficulties than they did prior?

I am not trying to argue or create enemies. I am here to learn from some of you guys. I have read on several studies of the subject, they pretty much all claim that so I take it as mostly true. That being said, you say they used Charolais to breed up the brahma. Do you think that it could be some of those older genes expressing theirselves in these studies? Or possibly the Hereford cows aren't as pure as they used to be like the angus has become?

 

[Massey135]

No, the brahman was used to breed up the Charolais. The fullblood Charolais had huge bws and the infusion of the brahman genetics decreased those bws drastically. 15/16ths was considered purebred for cows 31/32 for bulls.

The study above is skewed anyway. I don't think it was the brahman bulls increasing the bw as much as it was the brahman or brahman influenced females reducing the birthweights.

Look up average bws for modern beef breeds..... Notice where brahman ranks.

 

[ken]

Maybe Hereford and Angus are similar enough that there isn't a noticeable difference in the F1 daughters based on which way the cross is made?
In, say, a SimmXAngus or something, has anyone tried both ways?

Some times it makes a huge difference.
If I'm allowed to mention sheep, I've heard of one breeder who tried both ways on a cross.
Many hill breeders in the UK cross Leicester rams to Cheviot ewes, for F1, they call them 'mule, or half-bred' commercial ewes.
The Cheviots have toughness, vigour and mothering, but low lambing rate and less milk.
The Leicesters have high lambing rate, high milk, and good carcass, but are very high maintenance and are very large.
The mule ewes end up with the best of both breeds, and none of the negatives.
One guy thought he'd be more efficient, and breed the reverse, a Cheviot ram to Leicester ewes.
The F1 ewes he ended up with looked just like the normal cross, but they were a lot bigger, and all had weak single lambs who required special care and that was the last time he tried that.

It would make sense that the same thing happens with cattle.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Maybe Hereford and Angus are similar enough that there isn't a noticeable difference in the F1 daughters based on which way the cross is made?
In, say, a SimmXAngus or something, has anyone tried both ways?

Some times it makes a huge difference.
If I'm allowed to mention sheep, I've heard of one breeder who tried both ways on a cross.
Many hill breeders in the UK cross Leicester rams to Cheviot ewes, for F1, they call them 'mule, or half-bred' commercial ewes.
The Cheviots have toughness, vigour and mothering, but low lambing rate and less milk.
The Leicesters have high lambing rate, high milk, and good carcass, but are very high maintenance and are very large.
The mule ewes end up with the best of both breeds, and none of the negatives.
One guy thought he'd be more efficient, and breed the reverse, a Cheviot ram to Leicester ewes.
The F1 ewes he ended up with looked just like the normal cross, but they were a lot bigger, and all had weak single lambs who required special care and that was the last time he tried that.

It would make sense that the same thing happens with cattle.

That the progeny of the "reversed" f1 cross were much bigger can be explained by Leicesters milking heavily, and traditionally kept on better pastures. The weaker lamb I can not explain, nor the single births. Here in sweden they use a heritage breed (it is called finull, a foundation breed for the finn sheep) that has multiple births, to cross on meatier types. It does not seem to matter which way they got them; either a meat ram on finull ewes, or a finull ram on meat type hoggets.