Would you use this bull sired by a bull from Frei Angus?

[TennesseeTuxedo]

You want to buy a bull that may come up lame?

I didn't think we put much faith in EPDs around these parts?

TT, If you bought Pure Alpha, took care of him, and if he came up lame, I would buy him back for 3 times what you paid for him. I'm that confident in him.

See who else will offer you that deal.

I put my money where my mouth is....

You clearly don't know about my "anything for a buck" reputation. I'd buy him and pop him on the hoof with a hammer right after breeding season just to collect on the policy.

 

[Bright Raven]

I didn't think we put much faith in EPDs around these parts?

TT, If you bought Pure Alpha, took care of him, and if he came up lame, I would buy him back for 3 times what you paid for him. I'm that confident in him.

See who else will offer you that deal.

I put my money where my mouth is....

You clearly don't know about my "anything for a buck" reputation. I'd buy him and pop him on the hoof with a hammer right after breeding season just to collect on the policy.

I know that too. Don't ask me for a bull.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I didn't think we put much faith in EPDs around these parts?

TT, If you bought Pure Alpha, took care of him, and if he came up lame, I would buy him back for 3 times what you paid for him. I'm that confident in him.

See who else will offer you that deal.

I put my money where my mouth is....

You clearly don't know about my "anything for a buck" reputation. I'd buy him and pop him on the hoof with a hammer right after breeding season just to collect on the policy.

????

I thought you were a "white hat"

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

TT, If you bought Pure Alpha, took care of him, and if he came up lame, I would buy him back for 3 times what you paid for him. I'm that confident in him.

See who else will offer you that deal.

I put my money where my mouth is....

You clearly don't know about my "anything for a buck" reputation. I'd buy him and pop him on the hoof with a hammer right after breeding season just to collect on the policy.

????

I thought you were a "white hat"

Greed is good.

 

[True Grit Farms]

He's just trying to run the price up, and I don't play that game.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Well that makes more sense. The feet EPDs don't really bother me.

Milk isn't bad.

You want to buy a bull that may come up lame?

I didn't think we put much faith in EPDs around these parts?

There is no "we"... if you go back to my other post, I actually stated that those foot scores reflected with great accuracy... the bad feet. I bought a couple girls that had their feet shaved before sale day. Dishonest. And their feet are horrid now. They'll be culled after they calve.

I also stated in another post, what weight I put on EPDs.

 

[NEFarmwife]

What is Pure Alphas numbers now, btw?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

You want to buy a bull that may come up lame?

I didn't think we put much faith in EPDs around these parts?

There is no "we"... if you go back to my other post, I actually stated that those foot scores reflected with great accuracy... the bad feet. I bought a couple girls that had their feet shaved before sale day. Dishonest. And their feet are horrid now. They'll be culled after they calve.

I also stated in another post, what weight I put on EPDs.

So you really think he's a candidate to go lame because he's not in the 90th percentile?

 

[NEFarmwife]

I didn't think we put much faith in EPDs around these parts?

There is no "we"... if you go back to my other post, I actually stated that those foot scores reflected with great accuracy... the bad feet. I bought a couple girls that had their feet shaved before sale day. Dishonest. And their feet are horrid now. They'll be culled after they calve.

I also stated in another post, what weight I put on EPDs.

So you really think he's a candidate to go lame because he's not in the 90th percentile?

Are you staying he's not in the 90th percentile or that my stance is, anything worse than 90 is bad feet?

My stance is, despite scores... feet are extremely important. BH swears by his bulls feet and he may be absolutely correct. They may be great. But a bull without proper feet, will end with a number of issues and same can be said for dams.

Just because his Pure Aloha has great toes, doesn't mean his progeny will. Are you willing to assume that his bull is not a fluke and that his progeny that you hope to retain will be just as good?

BH cannot argue the importance of feet since that is what this whole thread has been about.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Let's leave this particular bull and his owner out of this please.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

Let's assume a commercial environment where 80% of the calves are sold post weaning but the outstanding heifers are retained. Herd size 80-100 head grazing primarily fescue.

Thanks in advance.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Another parameter, assume this operation buys new herd sires every 2-3 years.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Let's leave this particular bull and his owner out of this please.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

Let's assume a commercial environment where 80% of the calves are sold post weaning but the outstanding heifers are retained. Herd size 80-100 head grazing primarily fescue.

Thanks in advance.

Leave him out of this? You do realize this is his bull, his post, and his question... correct?

But an EPD foot/claw score is a catch 22 on rank because it was literally introduced. Now if you asked me what the NUMBER ONE place you should start with your cattle, I would (along with most of this board) tell you that you start with feet.

Do you raise cattle? Honest question.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Let's leave this particular bull and his owner out of this please.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

Let's assume a commercial environment where 80% of the calves are sold post weaning but the outstanding heifers are retained. Herd size 80-100 head grazing primarily fescue.

Thanks in advance.

And are the outstanding heifers retained, from the same bull with bad feet?

Answer is No!

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Let's leave this particular bull and his owner out of this please.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

Let's assume a commercial environment where 80% of the calves are sold post weaning but the outstanding heifers are retained. Herd size 80-100 head grazing primarily fescue.

Thanks in advance.

And are the outstanding heifers retained, from the same bull with bad feet?

Answer is No!

You're right, I was disrespectful to Branded by asking you a serious question on his thread.

Shall I start a new one because I am quite serious.

In answer, yes, we have just over 100 head of cattle but admittedly cattle is a sideline for me. I only see them once a month or so.

 

[Lazy M]

Let's leave this particular bull and his owner out of this please.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

Let's assume a commercial environment where 80% of the calves are sold post weaning but the outstanding heifers are retained. Herd size 80-100 head grazing primarily fescue.

Thanks in advance.

With Angus sires for your scenario I'd want the foot scores to be above breed average and breed average or better WW, $E, MILK, HP, and CED/BW. I could care less about $B and YW (if the calves were sold within 60 days of weaning).
A smarter approach IMO would be to AI a portion of the best cows for potential replacements and use a terminal herd bull. That can be much more time and labor intensive though.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Let's leave this particular bull and his owner out of this please.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

Let's assume a commercial environment where 80% of the calves are sold post weaning but the outstanding heifers are retained. Herd size 80-100 head grazing primarily fescue.

Thanks in advance.

With Angus sires for your scenario I'd want the foot scores to be above breed average and breed average or better WW, $E, MILK, HP, and CED/BW. I could care less about $B and YW (if the calves were sold within 60 days of weaning).
A smarter approach IMO would be to AI a portion of the best cows for potential replacements and use a terminal herd bull. That can be much more time and labor intensive though.

Makes perfect sense. I've never noticed any foot problems in our herd but now that they have a measurement to reference I've no doubt I'll be culling most of them.

 

[Lazy M]

Let's leave this particular bull and his owner out of this please.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

Let's assume a commercial environment where 80% of the calves are sold post weaning but the outstanding heifers are retained. Herd size 80-100 head grazing primarily fescue.

Thanks in advance.

With Angus sires for your scenario I'd want the foot scores to be above breed average and breed average or better WW, $E, MILK, HP, and CED/BW. I could care less about $B and YW (if the calves were sold within 60 days of weaning).
A smarter approach IMO would be to AI a portion of the best cows for potential replacements and use a terminal herd bull. That can be much more time and labor intensive though.

Makes perfect sense. I've never noticed any foot problems in our herd but now that they have a measurement to reference I've no doubt I'll be culling most of them.

Unless I decide that it is inaccurate and has no merit, I wouldn't bring in a sire that had less than the breed average for feet if I planned to retain heifers. Not saying that I put major emphasis on it now but there are enough bull choices out there currently, it's not difficult or terribly expensive to find a bull with the phenotype and genotype that you want.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Let's leave this particular bull and his owner out of this please.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

Let's assume a commercial environment where 80% of the calves are sold post weaning but the outstanding heifers are retained. Herd size 80-100 head grazing primarily fescue.

Thanks in advance.

And are the outstanding heifers retained, from the same bull with bad feet?

Answer is No!

You're right, I was disrespectful to Branded by asking you a serious question on his thread.

Shall I start a new one because I am quite serious.

In answer, yes, we have just over 100 head of cattle but admittedly cattle is a sideline for me. I only see them once a month or so.

TT, I have been reading the back and forth, and I have to say, I own the bull, I didn't breed him. He was inside a very nice momma I bought, a bonus bun in the oven.

Some people have a crystal ball in the Angus business, wink wink. Apparently Stone Gate and Frei Angus were hoodwinked on the Crook Mt Black Cedar 3870 bull.

I can see how that happened too, Stone Gate has only been in the business since the 1950's and only has 450 registered Angus cows and who knows how many on the commercial side. I figure they just rolled the dice on 3870, went on blind faith, right? I mean Charles Cannon just drove to SD to check him out because he was bored and sightseeing???

As for Frei Angus who used him extensively, they probably got hoodwinked as well.

Now if you go further up the pedigree you find Cole Creek Black Cedar 46P. Go to their website and read their philosophy, it's hard core.

I'm pretty certain all three operations cull hard, really hard for non functional cattle.

As for Pure Alpha's momma, she's a big Joy Erica tank, 1900+ pounds, has Basin Rainmaker in the pedigree, as well as Papa Blackcap.

I'm not going be losing any sleep over foot issues with him.

But if you are not convinced, I will be breeding Pure Alpha's momma to SAV America 8018 later this year, and If I'm not mistaken, I think he has pretty decent feet. You may want to check with SAV first, don't go solely on my advice.

She might have an America bull calf you would be interested in?????

 

[True Grit Farms]

It doesn't matter who you are and how long you've been doing something, screw ups still happen. We all make bad choices, some just less than others.

 

[Ebenezer]

Some of the worst feet in registered cattle I have seen have been on tours of famous farms and ranches. They would have been worse if not trimmed. Names of people and places has no effect on the foot scores. It is based on the cattle.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

You'll have to always consider accuracy and then decide if you want to go .05 up or down as a limit on either ranking or not. Set your limit and go for it. The ones that do not quite fit this scoring are the genetics that do well on average feed but ruin on higher levels of nutrition. Those genetics can hid on a farm and blow up at other locations.