Would you use this bull sired by a bull from Frei Angus?

[TennesseeTuxedo]

It doesn't matter who you are and how long you've been doing something, screw ups still happen. We all make bad choices, some just less than others.

Like breeding heifers without knowing the Pelvic Score or weight?

 

[True Grit Farms]

It doesn't matter who you are and how long you've been doing something, screw ups still happen. We all make bad choices, some just less than others.

Like breeding heifers without knowing the Pelvic Score or weight?

Yep, some you win some you loose. Timing is everything, if she'd of waited till daylight to calve she wouldn't be hamburger.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

It doesn't matter who you are and how long you've been doing something, screw ups still happen. We all make bad choices, some just less than others.

Like breeding heifers without knowing the Pelvic Score or weight?

Yep, some you win some you loose. Timing is everything, if she'd of waited till daylight to calve she wouldn't be hamburger.

Been there done that.

 

[Bright Raven]

It doesn't matter who you are and how long you've been doing something, screw ups still happen. We all make bad choices, some just less than others.

Like breeding heifers without knowing the Pelvic Score or weight?

All my heifers that are retained or setup for being sold as bred heifers are Pelvic scored and reproductive tract scored. Mine are all properly conditioned. So far, praise the Bovine Goddess of Fertility, they all stuck to AI calving ease bulls and have not lost a single heifer or their calf here or on the buyers end.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Yeah! Well? Um, that's just because you CARE more than we do!

I'm not gonna live with the cows.

 

[Bright Raven]

Yeah! Well? Um, that's just because you CARE more than we do!

I'm not gonna live with the cows.

True. I do care. Plus, it is good animal husbandry and it is good business.

Grit likes to say, "My cows work for me, I don't work for my cows."

It might be more realistic to say, "Cows work best for us if we work together with them."

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Yeah! Well? Um, that's just because you CARE more than we do!

I'm not gonna live with the cows.

True. I do care. Plus, it is good animal husbandry and it is good business.

Grit likes to say, "My cows work for me, I don't work for my cows."

It might be more realistic to say, "Cows work best for us if we work together with them."

Must be a union shop.

 

[Bright Raven]

Yeah! Well? Um, that's just because you CARE more than we do!

I'm not gonna live with the cows.

True. I do care. Plus, it is good animal husbandry and it is good business.

Grit likes to say, "My cows work for me, I don't work for my cows."

It might be more realistic to say, "Cows work best for us if we work together with them."

Must be a union shop.

I hope Grit is astute enough to pick up on the fact that you have dogged him over that heifer being unfit to calve ever since he posted that thread. Now that you lured me in you jump to his defense.

You are a troublemaker.

 

[True Grit Farms]

It doesn't matter who you are and how long you've been doing something, screw ups still happen. We all make bad choices, some just less than others.

Like breeding heifers without knowing the Pelvic Score or weight?

All my heifers that are retained or setup for being sold as bred heifers are Pelvic scored and reproductive tract scored. Mine are all properly conditioned. So far, praise the Bovine Goddess of Fertility, they all stuck to AI calving ease bulls and have not lost a single heifer or their calf here or on the buyers end.

To me that's a waste of money, especially the pelvic score when your all AI. If my XL hand fits she's good to go. Some cows could be like women and not dilate properly when the time comes, who's to say? Reproductive tract score? If she's a keeper and then open at 15 months she's a goner, that seems like a no brainer also. Stuff happens, how many cows and dogs have you buried before their time on your place?

 

[Bright Raven]

Like breeding heifers without knowing the Pelvic Score or weight?

All my heifers that are retained or setup for being sold as bred heifers are Pelvic scored and reproductive tract scored. Mine are all properly conditioned. So far, praise the Bovine Goddess of Fertility, they all stuck to AI calving ease bulls and have not lost a single heifer or their calf here or on the buyers end.

To me that's a waste of money, especially the pelvic score when your all AI. If my XL hand fits she's good to go. Some cows could be like women and not dilate properly when the time comes, who's to say? Reproductive tract score? If she's a keeper and then open at 15 months she's a goner, that seems like a no brainer also. Stuff happens, how many cows and dogs have you buried before their time on your place?

The CAIP program requires it. So if you don't want to disappoint some people, you better have the paperwork.

 

[True Grit Farms]

True. I do care. Plus, it is good animal husbandry and it is good business.

Grit likes to say, "My cows work for me, I don't work for my cows."

It might be more realistic to say, "Cows work best for us if we work together with them."

Must be a union shop.

I hope Grit is astute enough to pick up on the fact that you have dogged him over that heifer being unfit to calve ever since he posted that thread. Now that you lured me in you jump to his defense.

You are a troublemaker.

That's what back door buddies do.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Must be a union shop.

I hope Grit is astute enough to pick up on the fact that you have dogged him over that heifer being unfit to calve ever since he posted that thread. Now that you lured me in you jump to his defense.

You are a troublemaker.

That's what back door buddies do.

Hey now, I'm not 100% certain but I think the LBGQT blah blah blah community has put a new and twisted meaning on that old expression so watch out.

 

[Ky hills]

Pelvic measurements are another tool in the box for heifer selection. We have kept at least a few heifers each year for 30 years and didn't have that done until 10 or 12 years ago when I got into selling bred heifers. It is something that I believe would have saved atleast a few headaches in those years prior. If a calf is close on the measurements then it's a judgement call as to whether to retain her or not but I would hold that one for us to calve and not sell her to someone else. Typically we do sell any that don't make the cut as feeder calves. If they are in good condition and are of appropriate age then they will almost always exceed the minimum requirements sometimes by significant amounts. It's the greener conditioned ones that typically don't make the cut. On rare occasions there will be one that the vet says wasn't developed or didn't have all the parts. In those cases I think it's better to know that and cull that calf rather than to have ran it all season with no chance of getting bred. We use calving bulls, and the measurements, still on rare occasion there is trouble as Grit mentioned sometimes they don't dilate, our vet called that "ring womb"
There are numbers of things that can go wrong in regards to calving but I feel the pelvic measurements are a useful tool in helping to avoid some of it.

 

[Bright Raven]

Pelvic measurements are another tool in the box for heifer selection. We have kept at least a few heifers each year for 30 years and didn't have that done until 10 or 12 years ago when I got into selling bred heifers. It is something that I believe would have saved atleast a few headaches in those years prior. If a calf is close on the measurements then it's a judgement call as to whether to retain her or not but I would hold that one for us to calve and not sell her to someone else. Typically we do sell any that don't make the cut as feeder calves. If they are in good condition and are of appropriate age then they will almost always exceed the minimum requirements sometimes by significant amounts. It's the greener conditioned ones that typically don't make the cut. On rare occasions there will be one that the vet says wasn't developed or didn't have all the parts. In those cases I think it's better to know that and cull that calf rather than to have ran it all season with no chance of getting bred. We use calving bulls, and the measurements, still on rare occasion there is trouble as Grit mentioned sometimes they don't dilate, our vet called that "ring womb"
There are numbers of things that can go wrong in regards to calving but I feel the pelvic measurements are a useful tool in helping to avoid some of it.

Agree. Especially for a producer selling bred heifers. It is wrong to send a problem on to a buyer that is easy to discover like a pelvic score. All my heifers have met and exceeded the minimum score. I always forget but I think it is 160 square centimeters at 12 months of age. Then I breed at 14 to 15 months. My heifers are always well conditioned and continue to grow well here. So at calving, they have no trouble especially bred to AI calving ease bulls. This past breeding season I used Shell Shocked on heifers. Those calves should fall out. I get a lot of 12 month old heifers here that score in the 180 to 200 square centimeter range.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Yeah! Well? Um, that's just because you CARE more than we do!

I'm not gonna live with the cows.

True. I do care. Plus, it is good animal husbandry and it is good business.

Grit likes to say, "My cows work for me, I don't work for my cows."

It might be more realistic to say, "Cows work best for us if we work together with them."

My cows and I have a mutual agreement, "you take care of me, I take care of you"

Considering what I get out of them, they are giving more than they are taking.

People who talk of their cattle as a burden might want to sell out.

One other thing I may add, I've been in a business where I dealt with the demands of people daily, I will deal with the demands of my cattle any day over a human. Cattle are far more pleasant.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Some of the worst feet in registered cattle I have seen have been on tours of famous farms and ranches. They would have been worse if not trimmed. Names of people and places has no effect on the foot scores. It is based on the cattle.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

You'll have to always consider accuracy and then decide if you want to go .05 up or down as a limit on either ranking or not. Set your limit and go for it. The ones that do not quite fit this scoring are the genetics that do well on average feed but ruin on higher levels of nutrition. Those genetics can hid on a farm and blow up at other locations.

And you've seen some of the best at the stockyards?

You hate AAA, you hate reputable seed stock producers, you don't trust any numbers in the Angus breed, it's all commotion and promotion, breeders are all snakes in the grass, etc.

Why don't you just switch to poultry or swine or even gardening, and stop the mental anguish? It's not worth it Eb, get away from Angus and break the chains that bind.

Live a fulfilling life away from the burden that Angus cattle bring to you.

Don't be a person who loves to hate.

 

[Bright Raven]

Some of the worst feet in registered cattle I have seen have been on tours of famous farms and ranches. They would have been worse if not trimmed. Names of people and places has no effect on the foot scores. It is based on the cattle.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

You'll have to always consider accuracy and then decide if you want to go .05 up or down as a limit on either ranking or not. Set your limit and go for it. The ones that do not quite fit this scoring are the genetics that do well on average feed but ruin on higher levels of nutrition. Those genetics can hid on a farm and blow up at other locations.

And you've seen some of the best at the stockyards?

You hate AAA, you hate reputable seed stock producers, you don't trust any numbers in the Angus breed, it's all commotion and promotion, breeders are all snakes in the grass, etc.

Why don't you just switch to poultry or swine or even gardening, and stop the mental anguish? It's not worth it Eb, get away from Angus and break the chains that bind.

Live a fulfilling life away from the burden that Angus cattle bring to you.

Don't be a person who loves to hate.

I cannot identify with anyone who pursues cattle husbandry if it is a burden. I enjoy my cows, I have no complaints with the American Simmental Association, they have served my needs, they are extremely helpful.

I have talked to many of their technical staff. Keeping a database is not simple. As I understand it, the EPDs are manipulated with models. Models require lots of assumptions. We have a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on around here.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Yeah! Well? Um, that's just because you CARE more than we do!

I'm not gonna live with the cows.

True. I do care. Plus, it is good animal husbandry and it is good business.

Grit likes to say, "My cows work for me, I don't work for my cows."

It might be more realistic to say, "Cows work best for us if we work together with them."

My cows and I have a mutual agreement, "you take care of me, I take care of you"

Considering what I get out of them, they are giving more than they are taking.

People who talk of their cattle as a burden might want to sell out.

One other thing I may add, I've been in a business where I dealt with the demands of people daily, I will deal with the demands of my cattle any day over a human. Cattle are far more pleasant.

The prospect of making money is far greater when dealing with people. And if you get tired of dealing with people you can go on vacation. My cows are definitely a burden, and if you don't think yours are your lying to yourself.

 

[Ebenezer]

Some of the worst feet in registered cattle I have seen have been on tours of famous farms and ranches. They would have been worse if not trimmed. Names of people and places has no effect on the foot scores. It is based on the cattle.

My sincere question is what would be you cutoff measure for the new feet EPD's and since you put great weight on that EPD would you mind ranking your top 5 EPDs from most to least important.

You'll have to always consider accuracy and then decide if you want to go .05 up or down as a limit on either ranking or not. Set your limit and go for it. The ones that do not quite fit this scoring are the genetics that do well on average feed but ruin on higher levels of nutrition. Those genetics can hid on a farm and blow up at other locations.

And you've seen some of the best at the stockyards?

You hate AAA, you hate reputable seed stock producers, you don't trust any numbers in the Angus breed, it's all commotion and promotion, breeders are all snakes in the grass, etc.

Why don't you just switch to poultry or swine or even gardening, and stop the mental anguish? It's not worth it Eb, get away from Angus and break the chains that bind.

Live a fulfilling life away from the burden that Angus cattle bring to you.

Don't be a person who loves to hate.

Somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, huh? Nobody else can have experience or opinions except you and the folks who agree with you, huh? So if you and BR don't say it it ain't so, huh? Sure and the check's in the mail.

You two look for more ways to get threads locked than anybody I've seen. You do not know where I've been, what I've seen, who I know, where I get information and all you do is get on here and promote yourself and blast others. As Gomer would say, "For shame, for shame, for shame". Seems I'm happier than either of you two who are always trying to tear down posters with various opinions. Stay on the Yellow Brick road. It'll get you where you're goin'.

 

[Bright Raven]

Some of the worst feet in registered cattle I have seen have been on tours of famous farms and ranches. They would have been worse if not trimmed. Names of people and places has no effect on the foot scores. It is based on the cattle.

You'll have to always consider accuracy and then decide if you want to go .05 up or down as a limit on either ranking or not. Set your limit and go for it. The ones that do not quite fit this scoring are the genetics that do well on average feed but ruin on higher levels of nutrition. Those genetics can hid on a farm and blow up at other locations.

And you've seen some of the best at the stockyards?

You hate AAA, you hate reputable seed stock producers, you don't trust any numbers in the Angus breed, it's all commotion and promotion, breeders are all snakes in the grass, etc.

Why don't you just switch to poultry or swine or even gardening, and stop the mental anguish? It's not worth it Eb, get away from Angus and break the chains that bind.

Live a fulfilling life away from the burden that Angus cattle bring to you.

Don't be a person who loves to hate.

Somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, huh? Nobody else can have experience or opinions except you and the folks who agree with you, huh? So if you and BR don't say it it ain't so, huh? Sure and the check's in the mail.

You two look for more ways to get threads locked than anybody I've seen. You do not know where I've been, what I've seen, who I know, where I get information and all you do is get on here and promote yourself and blast others. As Gomer would say, "For shame, for shame, for shame". Seems I'm happier than either of you two who are always trying to tear down posters with various opinions. Stay on the Yellow Brick road. It'll get you where you're goin'.

My post was not directed at you. Read it again.

I don't care how happy you are!

If you feel better:

Ebenezer is happier than Bright Raven.