Would you use this bull sired by a bull from Frei Angus?

[ALACOWMAN]

bad picture.of my momma maker..

From what I see I like him, what's the AAA #? If you don't mind.

I don't mind,but he don't have one..he's sired by Tim Ohldes Occ unlimited bull out of a commercial cow this man owned....the sire and a couple others were there on lease..he fit my wallet, and herd....ill dig up a the pic of unlimited I took

 

[CattleMan1920]

I would not use him, although he looks nice because I need my calves weaning better than 400lbs.

I am not sure I understand why anyone would use a bull with those EPDs. We've discussed before in another thread. But my cattle aren't pets, they are money and while its feed efficiency is great, I need opportunity to make money, not save it. Feed doesn't cost us much around here.

I could see using him to fix a cow with extreme numbers on the other end but I wouldn't want him turned out to pasture.

He weaned more than 400 at 205.

What did he wean at? And did you pull him at the 205 or grow him with feed till 280 then "wean"?

He was 792 actual pounds at 262 days. That gave him an adjusted 205 of 687 pounds without creep feed. 3.02 pounds per day. Weighed him on Tru Test scales.

Those aren't numbers that satisfy me, and I totally get where you are coming from, hence the reason for using the AI sires that I do, but for commercial folks around KY, they would be totally happy to hit that mark.

He had a 1/2 brother of equal quality, almost a carbon copy sell for $6k. That's more than double the average sales price for an Angus bull in Kentucky.

He's a good bull, definitely doesn't measure up to the AI sires I use, but his feet are what I'm focused on.

As for feedlot performance, Frei Angus has their own feedlot in South Dakota, why would they use his sire? Same with Stone Gate. Frei has seen his videos and they have an entirely different assessment of him from you and BBall. They aren't selling semen or the bull so they have no reason to hype him. I'm just trying to figure out what I'm missing on this bull and 3870? My initial impressions were in line with you, even though I hate to admit that.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I am not quite sure what it is. We bought a bred heifer a few years back that was bred to Belvin Tres Patron. His numbers aren't in line with how we operate but we put some good bulls on that daughter and they look nice.

Looking nice, doesn't pay our bills. A good looking bull will sell better but our focus is finishing cattle. I don't see Frei as doing such, I certainly don't want to speak for them but a quick glance at their website, tells me they custom feed for others but aren't necessarily feeding out their own? I'd be interested in knowing how they're fairing, if they indeed are finishing their own. With carcass quality and values being in the bottom 5% of the breed... eek.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I am not quite sure what it is. We bought a bred heifer a few years back that was bred to Belvin Tres Patron. His numbers aren't in line with how we operate but we put some good bulls on that daughter and they look nice.

Looking nice, doesn't pay our bills. A good looking bull will sell better but our focus is finishing cattle. I don't see Frei as doing such, I certainly don't want to speak for them but a quick glance at their website, tells me they custom feed for others but aren't necessarily feeding out their own? I'd be interested in knowing how they're fairing, if they indeed are finishing their own. With carcass quality and values being in the bottom 5% of the breed... eek.

Again hate to admit it, but I was thinking in the same terms as you.

Apparently a guy named Jim Willson bred the 3870 bull and he was considered an excellent cattleman. He owned Crook Mt. Angus. They told me that 3870 according to Jim had the best feet he had ever seen in a bull up North, especially SD. He felt that 3870 was the pinnacle of all his years breeding, which was a lot.

I have a daughter out of 3870 and I have to admit she has VERY good feet.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Feet are a cornerstone of every herd. Or, should be. It is costly, not to focus on that.

But there are better bulls out there that can also provide good feet.

I just looked at all of Freis private treaty bulls out of that 35 bull of theirs and most don't even provide more than 4-5 EPD traits. That would be an extremely EASY pass on his genetics.

 

[NEFarmwife]

You seem to do this a lot when pushing a bull. This bull, you're focusing on its feet because it is a hard sell on anything else.

I don't mean that in a mean way. I am stating, IMO...You also know, he's a hard sell. You KNOW EPD's. You know, he's just pretty.

 

[CattleMan1920]

He is a beauty phenotypically. Real powerhouse. My only question, and I may be over analyzing, it didn't appear like he tracked quite right in the video? As in his rear hooves missed falling where the front hooves struck the ground by what appears like a good 12" in the video. Is he just that long? Flexibility issues? Maybe im making a mountain out of a mole hill?

With all due respect BBall, I have a commercial guy that may be taking him. He is deciding between switching back to Angus bulls versus sticking to Limousin, which he uses currently.

He uses about 30 bulls at any given time. He was concerned about weaning weights not his flexibility. In fact he never mentioned it and he looked the bull over closely. He was said he was correct and the guy has been in been in cattle for a LONG time.

He's a really long bull, and as someone else mentioned on here, he has his momma, a big Joy Erica cow to thank for the length. If you look at the 46p bull in his pedigree, that bull is long! Here is a link to him

http://www.universalsemensales.com/breeds/angus/cole-creek-black-cedar-46p

 

[CattleMan1920]

You seem to do this a lot when pushing a bull. This bull, you're focusing on its feet because it is a hard sell on anything else.

I don't mean that in a mean way. I am stating, IMO...You also know, he's a hard sell. You KNOW EPD's. You know, he's just pretty.

Without feet, you don't have sh.t, at least in our area. I would put his feet up against any bull at any sale in the country. His 1/2 sister is a tank of a heifer 1400 pounds, getting ready to have a Raindance daughter in a week.

I agree with the EPD's, you know I like them to look like Byergo Titus in that category, but again, what I'm asking is why Stone Gate and Frei would use the sire which has basically the same EPD's and use him extensively.

My line of thinking is that I can use a bull like Vermilion Spur E143 on Pure Alpha daughters, or even Hoover Dam on his daughters and get numbers and excellent feet.

Ask anyone in Kentucky, this environment completely thrashes feet, even the best of them. I could take that top selling cow from the DVF sale, and in 3-4 years on this terrain, she wouldn't look so hot. Ask Ron if you don't believe me.

I'm going for steel toed White's on my cattle not cheap Chinese throw away work boots if you get my drift.

 

[bball]

He is a beauty phenotypically. Real powerhouse. My only question, and I may be over analyzing, it didn't appear like he tracked quite right in the video? As in his rear hooves missed falling where the front hooves struck the ground by what appears like a good 12" in the video. Is he just that long? Flexibility issues? Maybe im making a mountain out of a mole hill?

With all due respect BBall, I have a commercial guy that may be taking him. He is deciding between switching back to Angus bulls versus sticking to Limousin, which he uses currently.

He uses about 30 bulls at any given time. He was concerned about weaning weights not his flexibility. In fact he never mentioned it and he looked the bull over closely. He was said he was correct and the guy has been in been in cattle for a LONG time.

He's a really long bull, and as someone else mentioned on here, he has his momma, a big Joy Erica cow to thank for the length. If you look at the 46p bull in his pedigree, that bull is long! Here is a link to him

http://www.universalsemensales.com/breeds/angus/cole-creek-black-cedar-46p

Thanks for the answer back. I will yield to the gentleman that saw him in person as photos and video often do not give the cattle their fair due. He is a longer bull for sure. Please do not mistake my questions for antagonism. I would turn him out today with a group of hereford girls i have.

 

[CreekAngus]

I didn't see a registration number for your bull.....but he looks good, I don't think he's over conditioned, he is conditioned, but he's obviously got enough forage to work with. And 697 at weaning, no creep, that is perfectly fine. I think we see some of these outlandish numbers (SAV) and start thinking those are the norm, they aren't.

 

[Nesikep]

I think I like the son better than the sire in the OP as well, and I have no doubt that comes from momma!

 

[CattleMan1920]

I didn't see a registration number for your bull.....but he looks good, I don't think he's over conditioned, he is conditioned, but he's obviously got enough forage to work with. And 697 at weaning, no creep, that is perfectly fine. I think we see some of these outlandish numbers (SAV) and start thinking those are the norm, they aren't.

AAA # 18878494

 

[Lazy M]

I didn't see a registration number for your bull.....but he looks good, I don't think he's over conditioned, he is conditioned, but he's obviously got enough forage to work with. And 697 at weaning, no creep, that is perfectly fine. I think we see some of these outlandish numbers (SAV) and start thinking those are the norm, they aren't.

AAA # 18878494

If your goal is strictly to produce functional cows, he should make some pretty easy keepers. His calves will have very slow growth though.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Your bull is a little heavy on the fat. Those four spots shows excessive fat. Burn the fat off, and then we'll know more on what his muscling is like. Got good structure though, and good rib so that does add value to heifers.

https://i.postimg.cc/jLVJ00Sm/Pure-Alpha-of-Branded.jpg

 

[CattleMan1920]

Your bull is a little heavy on the fat. Those four spots shows excessive fat. Burn the fat off, and then we'll know more on what his muscling is like. Got good structure though, and good rib so that does add value to heifers.

https://i.postimg.cc/jLVJ00Sm/Pure-Alpha-of-Branded.jpg

Thank you

 

[CreekAngus]

I didn't see a registration number for your bull.....but he looks good, I don't think he's over conditioned, he is conditioned, but he's obviously got enough forage to work with. And 697 at weaning, no creep, that is perfectly fine. I think we see some of these outlandish numbers (SAV) and start thinking those are the norm, they aren't.

AAA # 18878494

I thought I was the only one who had EPD nightmares. Honestly I don't know how to feel about this one, I like him, really like his dam, don't like his sire in any way, shape or form, EPD's are a disaster and his parents are newer models so his EPD's should be better than that. If I bought him from you, it's only for his mama and it appears her genetics are strong. He would be like New Day for me, I would keep every heifer and cut every single bull, but my concern is his progeny may not perform. I'm in a quandary with this guy. Here's my question for you James, with my own opinion in here, I don't like the sire, what is it that you like about the sire that made you not steer this guy? Other than feet.

 

[True Grit Farms]

A good looking registered bull is easy to sell for a premium over a steer.

 

[CreekAngus]

A good looking registered bull is easy to sell for a premium over a steer.

And a heck of lot more inputs involved to raise up a bull. I would rather cut a marginal bull and sell him at 600 weight for $1.70 (what I averaged last year) than pour money into him hoping to get $2,000 or slightly more in 6 months. For us here carrying a bull through the winter to sell in the spring is costly.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I didn't see a registration number for your bull.....but he looks good, I don't think he's over conditioned, he is conditioned, but he's obviously got enough forage to work with. And 697 at weaning, no creep, that is perfectly fine. I think we see some of these outlandish numbers (SAV) and start thinking those are the norm, they aren't.

AAA # 18878494

I thought I was the only one who had EPD nightmares. Honestly I don't know how to feel about this one, I like him, really like his dam, don't like his sire in any way, shape or form, EPD's are a disaster and his parents are newer models so his EPD's should be better than that. If I bought him from you, it's only for his mama and it appears her genetics are strong. He would be like New Day for me, I would keep every heifer and cut every single bull, but my concern is his progeny may not perform. I'm in a quandary with this guy. Here's my question for you James, with my own opinion in here, I don't like the sire, what is it that you like about the sire that made you not steer this guy? Other than feet.

I totally agree with the EPD's.

Here is why I didn't cut him. Stone Gate who like SAV does not test any animal from what I can tell, used the sire extensively. Now I don't know if you know Charles Cannon, but he is a fine cattleman, he started Stone Gate with his brother Jere in the 1950's, recently they were chosen for the CAB barn painting, and if I'm not mistaken Charles was President of AAA for a while. He's known far and wide in the cattle business for sure. He talked to me briefly about 3870 and was highly confident in him. Like you, I couldn't understand why, but who am I to argue with someone who has almost 70 years experience and runs 450 registered cows, not to mention has a cult like following around this area. When I spoke with Frei Angus, they spoke very highly of 3870 and even more so Jim Willson who bred him. So when I thought about those two operations going all in on 3870, I decided to keep Pure Alpha intact.

I can't post it at the moment because I'm up to my eyeballs in hay, but I some excellent video of a 3870 heifer/daughter I have, she's a VERY nice animal, and I think you will understand why I'm looking a bit closer at 3870 and 46P after seeing this heifer develop.

 

[CreekAngus]

Branded: I've seen the bulls Stone Gate has used and it's not towards my liking, as if my opinion matters. The bulls they have trumpeted aren't my thing.