White markings on black cattle

[Frankie]

I hate to disagree with Frankie; but actually, the University of Arkansas did a study of stockyard prices for feeder calves and black white face calves brought MORE money than black calves; though they too were surpassed by yellow white face calves.

Got a link? I'd be interested in reading it. Here's a link to a study OK State did several years ago:

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/research/2000rr/04.htm

I can only comment on what I see. I've seen Superior auctioneers and auctioneers here in OK offer to cut out the white faced calves in order to get the bid up on a group of black calves. Though I haven't attended the sale in a while, the last couple of our state cattlemen's sponsered female replacement sale that we attended, there just weren't any white faced heifers offered for sale. In years past when groups of 20-25 animals came in from a ranch that used Hereford & Angus bulls, they'd be in groups of baldies or groups of solid blacks. The blacks always outsold the baldies. And the polled baldies outsold the horned baldies. Most every heifer sold there will be bred to "an easy calving Angus bull."

 

[Frankie]

Speaking of white spots on Angus cattle, we had a calf born 3 days ago with a white spot the size of a silver dollar on the right side of her face half way between her eye and her nose. She is full Angus by registered dam and sire and they show no white at all.
Strange/ any one seen this before?
We plan to call her Dot. It is sort of a quite beauty mark that can be seen a ¼ mile away.

There are Angus bloodlines that will give you white hair. We used Fortune 2000 on heifers one year and had a bull calf with white skin on his navel. He was a chunk. Grew well, gained great, but I sure hated that white. And that same year another 2000 calf was born with a patch of white hair above his nose. It was about the size of my thumbnail. It stood out like a sore thumb, but by the time he came home from test as a yearling, you had to look for it. Since it was white hair, not skin, it didn't get any bigger. We don't use that bull anymore or any of his relatives.

 

[Beefy]

a lot of times if you see white on an "angus" it has a little simmental in the woodpile.

 

[Brandonm2]

I can't find the actual article without paying $8 to the Journal of Animal Science; but I do have an abreviated version of the results in this link.....table 4 Herf is half of the two highest dollar crosses.

http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publica ... A-3056.pdf

I am not doubting your word about Superior Auctions; BUT sometimes people see what they want to see.

Your study is also based on 1999 and 1997 data. The Arkansas data is newer.

 

[VanC]

I hate to disagree with Frankie; but actually, the University of Arkansas did a study of stockyard prices for feeder calves and black white face calves brought MORE money than black calves; though they too were surpassed by yellow white face calves.

Got a link? I'd be interested in reading it. Here's a link to a study OK State did several years ago:

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/research/2000rr/04.htm

I can only comment on what I see. I've seen Superior auctioneers and auctioneers here in OK offer to cut out the white faced calves in order to get the bid up on a group of black calves. Though I haven't attended the sale in a while, the last couple of our state cattlemen's sponsered female replacement sale that we attended, there just weren't any white faced heifers offered for sale. In years past when groups of 20-25 animals came in from a ranch that used Hereford & Angus bulls, they'd be in groups of baldies or groups of solid blacks. The blacks always outsold the baldies. And the polled baldies outsold the horned baldies. Most every heifer sold there will be bred to "an easy calving Angus bull."

Frankie,

According to your link, black WF and red WF (but not straight Hereford) sold higher than straight Angus in the study.

Table 1. Effect of breed character on sale price of feeder cattle in eastern Oklahoma auctions.




Breed



No. lots (%)
Price difference due to breed, $/cwt




No. lots (%)
Price difference due to breed, $/cwt


Steers-Oct. 1997

Steers-Apr. 1999

Hereford
179 (2.8) -8.37b 166 (3.7) -4.76ab
Angus
378 (5.8) Baseef 278 (6.2) Basecd
Blk/rd white face
680 (10.5) .85fg 447 (10.0) .74acd

I also wonder why no whites, yellows, or grays included. Surely there must be some Char and Char cross cattle going through the sale barns, even ten years ago.
Anyway, the whole thing is kind of moot to me, since it's hard to compare OK with AR.
As for Superior Auction, I don't doubt what you've seen. I've gone to a couple of sales around here recently and have seen the same thing.

 

[VanC]

P.S. I have no idea how the emoticons with the sunglasses got there. Wasn't me. :?:

 

[Beefy]

P.S. I have no idea how the emoticons with the sunglasses got there. Wasn't me. :?:

8 with a )

try editing it and putting in an extra space or something.

8)
8 )

 

[redfornow]

P.S. I have no idea how the emoticons with the sunglasses got there. Wasn't me. :?:

Van
there you go reading the links again.
Isnt if enough if we post em and TELL you what they mean....
Acts like this will not go unpunished. :shock:

 

[Wewild]

I got a white tail tipped black calve.

I thought I had Red Poll, Black Lims, and black angus.

I have seen a white streak on the leg of 1 last year.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Do you see "black" replacements or cows discounted due to some white markings?

Yes. I've seen black whiteface cattle discounted to solid black cattle, both replacement females and stockers. On Superior auctions and at replacement female sales that we've attended, auctioneers have offered to separate out the whitefaced animals to get a higher bid.

Does this make any sense to you??? I would think the cross breds wf stockers would out perform straight blacks and still qualify for the "black angus" branded meat. Lots of studies claim better economics and longer productive lives with cross bred cows.

 

[Frankie]

Do you see "black" replacements or cows discounted due to some white markings?

Yes. I've seen black whiteface cattle discounted to solid black cattle, both replacement females and stockers. On Superior auctions and at replacement female sales that we've attended, auctioneers have offered to separate out the whitefaced animals to get a higher bid.

Does this make any sense to you??? I would think the cross breds wf stockers would out perform straight blacks and still qualify for the "black angus" branded meat. Lots of studies claim better economics and longer productive lives with cross bred cows.

Conventional wisdom has always said crossbred cows are more fertile and are more productive than straightbred cows of any breed. According to a paper from OK State, heterosis improves traits with low heritability, and fertility is the most important of those. Crossbreeding should have little effect on carcass quality or ability to gain in the feedlot. The main complaint about beef by our customers is inconsistency. Properly chosen straightbred cattle will give you a more consistent carcass. The beef market is changing. More and more people are trying to produce a quality product, both for the premiums available and to satisfy the consumer. We'll see how it shakes out in the next few years.

 

[MikeC]

Properly chosen straightbred cattle will give you a more consistent carcass.

They can be "consistently" bad as well as good!

Don't even try to tell anybody that straightbred carcasses are better!

You post is packed with so many generalities it's downright comical.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Not to kick this 'dead horse' anymore than it already has been kicked, I must say something about discussions concerning anything related to cattle, horses, feed stuffs (including the word "Gluten", whether it is Corn Gluten, Wheat Gluten, or any other Gluten ( a gray, sticky, nutritious mixture of proteins found in Wheat and OTHER grain), matings, EPD's, and on and on, with OPINIONS of different people clouding the understanding of the original and primary point of view. Whether the argument is about agriculture, politics, child raising, love affairs, - you name it - MISUNDERSTANDINGS and LACK of ALL the facts at hand are always at the center of the controversy!

Frankie - you said that "conventional wisdom has always said that crossbred cows are more fertile and more productive than straightbred cows of any breed". That is a correct statement. It is also true for bulls! Those two facts are forms of generalties, because NOTHING has been mentioned about the Phenotypical and Genetypical factors relative to the factors of other progeny listed in the database! Hello! Database?! "What the heck does that mean?" says Rancher/Farmer XYZ! Just because XYZ hasn't had the opportunity to really comprehend ALL of the facts and factors at hand doesn't mean that he/she is wrong, OR right!

You also said, Frankie, that "Properly chosen" (CYA comment) "straightbred cattle will give you a more consistent carcass." That depends on so many OTHER factors, they are too numerous to mention here. Properly chosen (and there are BOOKS available to define the meaning(s) of "Properly chosen") crossbreds CAN and/or MIGHT give you a more consistent carcass. AND . . . it MIGHT NOT!

These discussions, arguments, misunderstandings and even WARS and Divorces hinge and pivot on a word, or a letter added or left out of a statement. It's ridiculous to allow a platitude to become a truism or a bromide. This is one reason that cattle breeding is a tough business. It can't be based on he said/she said arguments or rationalities.

A friend of mine becomes almost apoplectic at the mere mention of EPD's, yet in his breeding protocols he uses the principles of EPD's to the maximum - - he just calls them something else. Do you think he will listen to logic? or reason? N-o-o-o-o-o! He is angry at the way EPD's were mis-handled 35 years ago by a few unscrupulous people - -so that means that UPD's are no @#!& good, the people who use them are no @#!& good, and the cattle are no @#!& good! SHEESH!

I agree that more and more people are trying to produce a quality product, but we all should be on the same page, and the printing ON that page should be written in the same language!

DON'T GET ME STARTED! :roll:

DOC HARRIS

 

[dun]

And yet there was an article in Beef or Drovers a couple of months ago about 2 brothers that went back to sdtraightbred Angus because they produced better and longer then his their crossbred herd. Generalities when taken in the proper context are what drives the industry and the world. It's realizing that that is what they are and nothing is graven in stone is the important part.

 

[mnmtranching]

There are lots of purebred Angus herds weaning 6-7 hundred pound average 205 day calves.

 

[TheBullLady]

Shesh.. will this forum ever get away from the Angus debaucle? Seems like every question, no matter how far off, ends up in an Angus argument.

So.. to the ORIGINAL question! A lot of my Simmentals have white bellies. You will see white on Maines as well, but I've found they tend more towards socks and white faces.

If they're good cattle with white bellies, I'm SURE they're Simmentals! :cboy:

 

[Brandonm2]

There are lots of purebred Angus herds weaning 6-7 hundred pound average 205 day calves.

True, but how heavy are those momma cows???

 

[DOC HARRIS]

There are lots of purebred Angus herds weaning 6-7 hundred pound average 205 day calves.

True, but how heavy are those momma cows???

-Right! If they are bigger than 1500-1600# they cost too much hay, grain and grass to be as profitable as 1250# cows - 22% more in fact. How would you like to increase your bottom line (Profit) by - say - 20% each year, or add 20% more cows to your herd for the same feed outlay?? We need to think "outside" of the box!

I am not "breed" intensive. I AM Profit intensive. If a "BREED" can do it - FINE. If "crossbreeding does it - FINE! If it takes concentrating EPD's, Phenotype, Ratios, Proper Herd Management Protocols - FINE! But just crazy, blind luck in cattle production is NOT going to cut the mustard - in ANY way!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Brandonm2]

There are lots of purebred Angus herds weaning 6-7 hundred pound average 205 day calves.

True, but how heavy are those momma cows???

-Right! If they are bigger than 1500-1600# they cost too much hay, grain and grass to be as profitable as 1250# cows - 22% more in fact. How would you like to increase your bottom line (Profit) by - say - 20% each year, or add 20% more cows to your herd for the same feed outlay?? We need to think "outside" of the box!
DOC HARRIS

Exactly Doc. Show me a 650 lb calf out of a 1300 pound or less cow and I am impressed. The same calf out of a 1550. 1650, or more cow is really nothing to be bragging about. You can find 1250 pound cows all day long that can consistently wean 600 lb calves. Adding another 300++ pounds of cow wt. to feed just to get 50-60 more pounds of calf to sell is not a good trade.